Joel Payne

As an old sage once said "You don't get paid what you are worth, you get paid what you negotiate."

iflyjets4food

Jet-A is already coming back down in price, they are going to come out looking like geniuses.

CVG767A

I think the guy who runs SWA's hedging operation IS a genius.

ChrisH

The way I see it, people don't spend $150,000 on education and training for an $18,000/year job. They spend $150,000 on education and training in the hopes and potential that they will one day be that SWA, UPS, FedEx, etc. captain, making close to $200,000/year.

Other than first year FO pay at a regional, salaries are not that bad. I think there is a reason that first year regional FO pay is so low. It is the same reason first year FO and captain pay at UPS is only $27/hr. The second to third year FOs at the regionals, that I know, are making on average, about $40,000/year. Some more, and some less, depending on the airline. I know one guy who made $50,000 his second year. Those salaries, except for the first year FO, is about what one would expect to make starting in other careers as well. The exception being those becoming doctors, lawyers, and other career fields that require a special degree. Those salaries are certainly livable for someone who is young, single and new to the industry.

Captain pay at a regional is certainly livable. I know a couple of five to six year captains at the regional, and they make between $70-$80,000/year. In other career fields, salaries tend to top off at around the ~$80,000/year range, and some not even that high. Plenty of people also own homes, have nice cars, and are raising families on the above salaries, and less. I think this is why some people decide to spend their career with a regional. They are making a good salary, holding a line, know what days they will have off, and have a good QOL. They don't want to give that all away to start at the bottom again, even if it is with the majors, even if it means a pay raise.

No I am not sticking up for pilot pay. Here is why I mentioned all of the above. I don't think the $150,000 is for the first year regional FO pay. I think it is for the potential later on. This is why I think if you start slashing major pay, you will, in the long run, begin to see pilot applicants taper off. I agree there will still be those willing to fill the classes and fly for free. But, even they will eventually realize they have to eat, and it is not worth it. You will then see a tapering off of those willing to fly for free. More, and more people will become content with entering another career field, and simply buying their own airplane to fly for fun on the weekends. When this happens, the airlines will find themselves with a true pilot shortage.

Vito

Look at it this way, say for example you work for a construction company. This company goes out and buys a new piece of equipment that costs $200 MILLION DOLLARS!!!! You have to operate this machine to a high level of proficiency and skill or else many people would die...Only a few people have the skill to operate this machine. What would someone like that be worth? probably at least $200,000 plus....Go look at pay scales for ship Captains, crane operators etc...have one of those crane operators try to manipulate the crane and its cargo while travelling at 150 knots with a 25 k crosswind!
PS friend of mine is a heavy crane operator and makes more than most F/O's right now!! sad
Vito

LAfrequentflyer

Vito,

Thanks for your inputs, well stated...IMHO, they may not deserve $$$ they make as crane operators/ construction workers, ship captains (i would debate this, they have quite a bit of responsibility....) but their union is able to negotiate their pay / compensation. Airline / Pilot unions need to start doing the same...Its time to redefine the relationship btwn management and pilots. Then its time for pilots to re-educate the flying public on what the job involves and requires...I wonder what happens to a construction worker that crossed the line and betrays his co-workers to management?

-LA

CVG767A

Pilot pay is rapidly approaching the point where the job isn't worth training for. All of the BS we put up with while learning our trade- instructing, flying checks, or flying military ( 18 hour duty days, 7 days a week, over hostile territory)- was tolerated, because the payoff was the left seat at a major airline.

It still is an enjoyable job, but when I look at what many of my friends are earning, I think I am short changing my family. Most of the guys I know make about what I do, and don't have to agonize about where they'll be on Thanksgiving or Christmas Day. Also, if they make a mistake at work, it's not the lead story on the evening news.

I remember watching live coverage of a USAir crash at LGA several years ago. (Rwy 31; full rudder deflection on takeoff roll.) It later came out in the news that the captain's teenage son was watching the news, too, knowing that it was his dad's flight. (The captain didn't survive.)That day, I began to think that we don't earn nearly enough.

ChrisH

I don't think that pilots are underpaid. I do not agree with pilot pay being slashed. I am simply playing the devil's advocate here; the person from outside the industry.

Lets look at some average salaries for certain career fields.

1) Doctors:
Average salary: ~$202,000

2) Airline Pilot:
Average salary: $109,000
Lowest 10%: $55,800
More than 25%: Over $145,000

3) Accountants:
Average salary: $47,000
Lowest 10%: $30,320
Top 10%: More than $82,730

4) Chemical Engineer (highest paid of engineers):
Average salary: $72,490
Lowest 10%: $48,550
Top 10%: $107,520

5) Ship Captains:
"Annual pay for captains of larger vessels, such as container ships, oil tankers, or passenger ships, may exceed $100,000, but only after many years of experience."

6) Crane and tower operators:
Average salary: $17.47 per hour

The above are some of the more "specialty" career fields someone may go into, with the last two being career fields some of you brought up in this thread. Of course, those are averages, and I am sure you all know people making more, or less, but that is the reason for the "average", "top 10%", and "lowest 10%". Airline pilot is ranked #2 on the list, next to doctors.

I'll mention a few other career fields below.

Nurse:
Average salary: $48,090
Lowest 10%: 33,970
Top 10%: $69,670

Police officer:
Average salary: $42,270
Lowest 10%: $25,270
Top 10%: $65,330

Firefighter
Average salary: $17.42 per hour
Lowest 10%: $8.51 per hour
Top 10%: $28.22 per hour

The list could go on. The above are some career fields that are extremely important, and in the case of police officers, and firefighters, they can be extremely dangerous. They are making less than half the "average" salary for airline pilots.

Just keep these salaries in mind before you complain about a six figure salary. You don't know who is listening, and just how that may sound to them.

AirWillie

Chirst, what ever happend to "WILL FLY for FOOD" cliche? Who goes into flying for money? Sorry to say this but airline pilot is not a super human job, the fact is that anybody can do it. That is why it will never be the highest paying job.

ChrisH

AirWillie,

That is my point exactly. I wouldn't go as far as to say "anybody" can do it, but most anybody can do it. It is not a superhuman job, you are correct. Considering that, and the salaries mentioned above, airline pilot is only second to doctors, of the careers I listed, as far as salaries are concerned. Airline pilots cannot expect to be making as much or more than doctors.

Pay is being cut at the major level, but even with that, being a major airline pilot is still one of the highest paying jobs you can get.