SkyHigh

Chris H

I think that you could fill classes with applicants that would fly for free. Even now we have thousands of young people throwing 150K in education and training to get a job that pays $18,000 per year. Money isn't a motivator anymore. Pilots today are martyrs.

SkyHigh

mike734

You know, Alaska was having difficulty finding the "right" pilots a few years ago and unilaterally phased out the B-scale. The company actually came to the union and asked us to allow them to remove the B-scale! We allowed them, of course and Alaska soon had the highest starting pay scale (Except FedEx might have been higher).

There may be thousands of pilots out there but the HR departments are particular. At Alaska for example you must be:

- a non-smoker
- college grad (exceptions of course)
- have the required hours/experience
- Who the F Knows what else? The formula has not been cracked.

My point is when airlines start competing for pilots you will see improvements in benefits and pay. It may take 10 years but it will happen. The boomers are retiring.

Typhoonpilot

Here in lies the problem. Pilot supply exceeds demand. As long as that is the case pilot wages will continue to fall. If you truly want pilot wages to increase it would be better to make it more difficult to become a pilot, much like the medical profession does with becoming a doctor.

How exactly one would go about that, I'm not sure. In Europe, Australia, and a few other places the knowledge requirements to pass the written exams are much higher. That is one possible step.

As long as all these 20 somethings with fresh new ATPs are out there competing for the few jobs available, management will keep pay low. It is only when they run out of applicants that the entry level pay will go up. We are seeing the effects of a pilot shortage in India and China right now. Wages are increasing because airlines can't find enough qualified pilots to fill the seats.

At my airline in the Middle East we had an 8 percent raise last May, primarily to aid pilot retention. Management would not have done that if they didn't think it was necessary. We don't have a union contract so management does as they please. In this case they realized it was cheaper to give us a raise than to lose us to the competition.

Back in the 90s I worked for a non-sched DC-9/MD-80 operator. Myself and my colleagues made $55 per hour as MD-80 captains. Five of us got a job offer to go overseas for substantially more. We went to our manager and told him that if he paid us $75 per hour we would stay. He refused, we all left. Within three months that airline had to raise their pay to what we had asked for in order to get qualified guys. This was late 1995, when the hiring boom of the 90s was just getting under way and good jobs were there for the picking.



Typhoonpilot

mike734

Exactly. ALPA should interject itself as a self policing association like the AMA. The American Medical Association. They have everything to do with the number of qualified doctors and the barriers to entry. If ALPA could start to exercise some control of the supply of pilots we have a chance.

ChrisH

The thing about becoming a pilot is; it is much easier to do now days, because the resources are more than they used to be. You don't have to go far to find an instructor and an airplane to fly.

BUT; very few, if any people, go into aviation simply 'as a job', like they may do in other careers. Someone who desires to become a pilot, is someone who probably had the desire from a very young age.

Becoming a professional pilot costs a lot of money, and time. Despite being 'easier' now days, it still requires a lot of skill and knowledge. Not everyone is able, and desires to do that.

Remember that before 9-11, the airline were hiring like crazy. They couldn't feel the seats fast enough, so it seemed. I remember my dad cutting out an article from our local newspaper and giving it to me one day. The article was about there being a 'pilot shortage'. Of course, again, this was before 9-11.

Now, after 9-11, we see a different story. The airlines are struggling, and we have Delta, United, NorthWest, and others in bankcruptcy. Many of the airline still have a lot of pilots on furlough, and ultimately, you could say there is a larger supply of pilots, than there is a demand. However, I know many who believe there will be another hiring boom within the next 5 years or so. If that happens, we will again see the need for more pilot applicants. This is why I believe the airlines would be foolish, and run into more problems than good, if they try to slash pay too much.

But I agree; you can probably fill many classes with people willing to fly for free. Sometimes I want to fly so bad, I wouldn't be surprised if I found myself in one of those seats.

Just keep in mind that the airline industry is a cyclical industry. It has it's ups and downs. We are obviously in a 'down' right now, but I believe we will see an improvement, and things will straighten back out sooner or later, as they tend to always do with this industry.

SkyHigh

Chris H,

Every time it corrects itself the bottom rung is always lower. Even during the late 90's "hiring boom" it wasn't so great. Only a handful ever made it to the majors and of those lucky few most are now laid off till 2010 or later or never. Even during the hottest market it was unheard of to hire a regional FO with less then 1200 hours. Horizon Air was averaging 4500 hours TT for new hires in the late 90's. Today in what is supposed to be the crash regionals are lowering the bar down to the mid hundreds. I think management has picked up on something. A new style of hiring. They hire young kids that don't complain and will be stuck there for a decade at least. I don't see why the majors don't follow suit.

Like mike734 said we could use a union regulated apprentice system and drag out the pilot process by 5 or 6 years. Something has to stem the tide of the pilot factories. I was just on the phone tonight with a Horizon captain friend of mine and he told me that a few of his FO's had never even thought of flying a plane before and within two years they are now pilots at Horizon. To me that is signaling a disaster.

SkyHigh

777AA

MORE MANAGEMENT BS!

If SkyHigh WAS a REAL PILOT, he WOULD know the responsibly involved!

All Capts should be Paid $2/PAX Seat/Hour!

FOs 75% of that!

777AA

Hey SkyHigh,

why did you Leave Out the MOST successful, highest market Cap and the HIGHEST PAID PILOTS.......................

Southwest, 12 year Capt MIN monthly pay of $14,820 plus Profit Sharing and 7.3% 401 Match!

SkyHigh

777AA

Well I left them out since they would probably join a group union effort. Am I missing something??

SkyHigh

Man I wish I was management. I would let you strike and replace everyone with 600 hour RJ heroes at 45K per year !!!! Just ask FlyerJosh and the rest of the cheer staff. They think that anyone who expects to earn more than 60K per year is greedy.

Kill Bill

let's see how they do when their fuel hedges run out.