So how much should a pilot be paid?
11-21-2005, 07:00 PM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Terd in the coolade
How many people who want "protections" in the industry are willing to give up their own position to get those "protections"? Thats the true question.
In other words, are you going to take one for the team?
Jack
In other words, are you going to take one for the team?
Jack
11-21-2005, 08:44 PM
#42
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Duffrick
Dear Duff,
Hey man I am with you. I don't make the news I am just reporting it. The reality is that no one cares if you make a smooth landing or not. The world will not stop if you quit.
However if a well liked CEO wishes to leave a company then the stockholders will pay a huge sum to keep him. Additionally if ESPN wants people to watch a golf program then it had better have Tiger Woods playing that day. Our profession is not that special anymore and the training is easy to get. As I have mentioned in a previous post. It is more difficult to become licensed to cut hair than to become a regional FO. No one will be willing to pay much for the profession until supply chain is slowed down. Sadly however the fun factor is too high and people are still lined up at hundreds of colleges all over the country to get a job that pays 18K per year.
I think that there is no where else to go but to continue down till the pay is so lousy that even the thrill seekers shy away, and there it will stay.
The value isn't within the work that we do but in what others are willing to pay for it.
SkyHigh
Hey man I am with you. I don't make the news I am just reporting it. The reality is that no one cares if you make a smooth landing or not. The world will not stop if you quit.
However if a well liked CEO wishes to leave a company then the stockholders will pay a huge sum to keep him. Additionally if ESPN wants people to watch a golf program then it had better have Tiger Woods playing that day. Our profession is not that special anymore and the training is easy to get. As I have mentioned in a previous post. It is more difficult to become licensed to cut hair than to become a regional FO. No one will be willing to pay much for the profession until supply chain is slowed down. Sadly however the fun factor is too high and people are still lined up at hundreds of colleges all over the country to get a job that pays 18K per year.
I think that there is no where else to go but to continue down till the pay is so lousy that even the thrill seekers shy away, and there it will stay.
The value isn't within the work that we do but in what others are willing to pay for it.
SkyHigh
11-22-2005, 03:16 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 642
Duffrick, ChrisH
Duffrick, great post! I often use the example of the New York Yankees. What if George Steinbrenner went down to the minor leagues and asked a minor leaguer, "How would you like to play centerfield for the Yankees?" of course the player would jump at the chance! Then he tells the player, who's been making about $6,000 a year, I'll even pay you $90,000 to play for the Yankees! what minor leaguer wouldn't jump at the opportunity.Then He kicks Bernie Williams and his 8 million dollar salary to tyhe street. I see the same situation happening with these LCC's (with the exception of SWA) "Hey kid, how would you like to fly a brand-new Airbus for $80,000 a year?" Sounds great if your flying an RJ for $45,000!!
ChrisH Your young and $100,000 sounds like alot of cash, it did to me as well, but take my advise, don't move anywhere near the Northeast US cause you wont be able to buy a 2 bedroom condo with that salary, much less raise a couple of kids. Good luck on your ratings hopefully we'll share a cockpit in the future. I'm lucky enough to work for an airline thats doing well and we are being paid a salary commensurate with our profession. By the way I left Law school to be a pilot in the USAF, I completed my first year and it was easy! Air Force Pilot training was the hardest thing I ever did bar none, so I don't think, like many on this forum that becoming a pilot is easy. Maybe if I went a differnt route my perceptions would be different. I saw over 65% of my UPT class wash-out and it was sad and heartbreaking watching tough, smart guys breakdown and crumble under very intense pressure, so I value my "wings" as I'm sure You do, and it bothers me to hear some guys say its easy!! either they're great pilots or Daddy paid the Comair Academy enough tuition to get junior through.
By the way my brother, works on Wall Street, He's 10 years younger than I (33 yrs old) and his bonus last year was more than my Capt salary at a large Brown company!!!!!
Take Care,
Vito
Duffrick, great post! I often use the example of the New York Yankees. What if George Steinbrenner went down to the minor leagues and asked a minor leaguer, "How would you like to play centerfield for the Yankees?" of course the player would jump at the chance! Then he tells the player, who's been making about $6,000 a year, I'll even pay you $90,000 to play for the Yankees! what minor leaguer wouldn't jump at the opportunity.Then He kicks Bernie Williams and his 8 million dollar salary to tyhe street. I see the same situation happening with these LCC's (with the exception of SWA) "Hey kid, how would you like to fly a brand-new Airbus for $80,000 a year?" Sounds great if your flying an RJ for $45,000!!
ChrisH Your young and $100,000 sounds like alot of cash, it did to me as well, but take my advise, don't move anywhere near the Northeast US cause you wont be able to buy a 2 bedroom condo with that salary, much less raise a couple of kids. Good luck on your ratings hopefully we'll share a cockpit in the future. I'm lucky enough to work for an airline thats doing well and we are being paid a salary commensurate with our profession. By the way I left Law school to be a pilot in the USAF, I completed my first year and it was easy! Air Force Pilot training was the hardest thing I ever did bar none, so I don't think, like many on this forum that becoming a pilot is easy. Maybe if I went a differnt route my perceptions would be different. I saw over 65% of my UPT class wash-out and it was sad and heartbreaking watching tough, smart guys breakdown and crumble under very intense pressure, so I value my "wings" as I'm sure You do, and it bothers me to hear some guys say its easy!! either they're great pilots or Daddy paid the Comair Academy enough tuition to get junior through.
By the way my brother, works on Wall Street, He's 10 years younger than I (33 yrs old) and his bonus last year was more than my Capt salary at a large Brown company!!!!!
Take Care,
Vito
11-22-2005, 05:27 AM
#44
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Everyone !!
Hey !!!
It appears that we have a rare example of a true old fashioned arrogant over paid airline pilot here. His attitude has been totally untainted by the reality of what is going on around him. We need to carefully place him in an airline museum so he can be enjoyed by all. What a joy it is to read him justify why pilots are like doctors. It really takes me back. It must be nice to be able to tell yourself that stuff Vito.
SkyHigh
It appears that we have a rare example of a true old fashioned arrogant over paid airline pilot here. His attitude has been totally untainted by the reality of what is going on around him. We need to carefully place him in an airline museum so he can be enjoyed by all. What a joy it is to read him justify why pilots are like doctors. It really takes me back. It must be nice to be able to tell yourself that stuff Vito.
SkyHigh
11-22-2005, 10:08 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 184
Originally Posted by Vito
Duffrick, ChrisH
Duffrick, great post! I often use the example of the New York Yankees. What if George Steinbrenner went down to the minor leagues and asked a minor leaguer, "How would you like to play centerfield for the Yankees?" of course the player would jump at the chance! Then he tells the player, who's been making about $6,000 a year, I'll even pay you $90,000 to play for the Yankees! what minor leaguer wouldn't jump at the opportunity.Then He kicks Bernie Williams and his 8 million dollar salary to tyhe street. I see the same situation happening with these LCC's (with the exception of SWA) "Hey kid, how would you like to fly a brand-new Airbus for $80,000 a year?" Sounds great if your flying an RJ for $45,000!!
ChrisH Your young and $100,000 sounds like alot of cash, it did to me as well, but take my advise, don't move anywhere near the Northeast US cause you wont be able to buy a 2 bedroom condo with that salary, much less raise a couple of kids. Good luck on your ratings hopefully we'll share a cockpit in the future. I'm lucky enough to work for an airline thats doing well and we are being paid a salary commensurate with our profession. By the way I left Law school to be a pilot in the USAF, I completed my first year and it was easy! Air Force Pilot training was the hardest thing I ever did bar none, so I don't think, like many on this forum that becoming a pilot is easy. Maybe if I went a differnt route my perceptions would be different. I saw over 65% of my UPT class wash-out and it was sad and heartbreaking watching tough, smart guys breakdown and crumble under very intense pressure, so I value my "wings" as I'm sure You do, and it bothers me to hear some guys say its easy!! either they're great pilots or Daddy paid the Comair Academy enough tuition to get junior through.
By the way my brother, works on Wall Street, He's 10 years younger than I (33 yrs old) and his bonus last year was more than my Capt salary at a large Brown company!!!!!
Take Care,
Vito
Duffrick, great post! I often use the example of the New York Yankees. What if George Steinbrenner went down to the minor leagues and asked a minor leaguer, "How would you like to play centerfield for the Yankees?" of course the player would jump at the chance! Then he tells the player, who's been making about $6,000 a year, I'll even pay you $90,000 to play for the Yankees! what minor leaguer wouldn't jump at the opportunity.Then He kicks Bernie Williams and his 8 million dollar salary to tyhe street. I see the same situation happening with these LCC's (with the exception of SWA) "Hey kid, how would you like to fly a brand-new Airbus for $80,000 a year?" Sounds great if your flying an RJ for $45,000!!
ChrisH Your young and $100,000 sounds like alot of cash, it did to me as well, but take my advise, don't move anywhere near the Northeast US cause you wont be able to buy a 2 bedroom condo with that salary, much less raise a couple of kids. Good luck on your ratings hopefully we'll share a cockpit in the future. I'm lucky enough to work for an airline thats doing well and we are being paid a salary commensurate with our profession. By the way I left Law school to be a pilot in the USAF, I completed my first year and it was easy! Air Force Pilot training was the hardest thing I ever did bar none, so I don't think, like many on this forum that becoming a pilot is easy. Maybe if I went a differnt route my perceptions would be different. I saw over 65% of my UPT class wash-out and it was sad and heartbreaking watching tough, smart guys breakdown and crumble under very intense pressure, so I value my "wings" as I'm sure You do, and it bothers me to hear some guys say its easy!! either they're great pilots or Daddy paid the Comair Academy enough tuition to get junior through.
By the way my brother, works on Wall Street, He's 10 years younger than I (33 yrs old) and his bonus last year was more than my Capt salary at a large Brown company!!!!!
Take Care,
Vito
If you are a captain for a big brown company, than your salary is probably easily over $100K/year, I would assume. Not many people work in career fields that offer them the opportunity to make a salary like that, regardless of what section of the country they live in, or whether they work in the private, or public sector. Even the salaries of some of the higher paid careers outside of aviation, do not average out to equal the average salary of a major airline pilot. The truth is, these realtors, and sale reps who make $300K/year, are not your everyday person. My brother works for a medical supply company. Some of the sale reps for his company make $300K/year. He said, however, that although they may make $300K one year, they have also seen years where they have made $30K. The same goes for realtors. A majority of realtors do not make $300K/year. You can always find someone making more, but the majority of people do not fall into that category.
The only way to stop major pay from falling, is for pilots to stand up for themselves. I am a young, soon to be airline pilot, but I am not willing to fly just for the thrill. I want to make a decent living, where I can raise a family, and live comfortably. I will not give that up to fly a 747 for $40K/year. I hope that enough pilots share that attitude, and do not allow the airlines to continue to drop pay, simply so they can get into the 'big' jet.
11-22-2005, 01:06 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 642
ChrisH, Skyhigh
ChrisH great post!! dead on target!
SkyHigh????Part of the reason why the salaries of airline pilots are going down the tubes are these LCC's (except SWA) who pay their pilots cr@p!!
and I'm talking about before 911. How can Delta compete against Air-Tran when Air-Tran pilots work so much cheaper than the Delta Pilots?
You can look at it and say the Delta guys are overpaid, but they're not, Its the Air-Tran guys who accept the low wages, which in turn causes Delta to try and match somehow.
My favorite is that "Aviation Genius" Neelman from JetBlue. He's on all these TV shows pontificating about how smart He is and How JetBlue has somehow unlocked the secret of profitability in the airline business. In reality He starts a new airline where every employee is on their first year pay, then He pays them sub-standard pay, gets a cherry deal from Airbus, and cherry picks the best routes...Now how could Delta or other legacy carrier compete when Delta has to pay their Capts 12 year pay, and their salaries are excellent! ditto for all the other workers in the company! So Delta's hurting and guys like skyhigh are laughing or saying that those dummies at Delta can't figure out the "new paradigm"
In about 8 years, hopefully pilots at JetBlue and Airtran and their ilk will be at higher salary levels, and I'll laugh when Neelman quits and starts JetRED with bottom feeders all the jetBlue pilots etc will feel the pain.
I don't wish ill will on these pilots, many are my friends but as pilots we can't keep on accepting these low salaries without realizing the consequences for the profession. I know its easy for me to say due to my position, and I feel for everyone of these guys.
ChrisH great post!! dead on target!
SkyHigh????Part of the reason why the salaries of airline pilots are going down the tubes are these LCC's (except SWA) who pay their pilots cr@p!!
and I'm talking about before 911. How can Delta compete against Air-Tran when Air-Tran pilots work so much cheaper than the Delta Pilots?
You can look at it and say the Delta guys are overpaid, but they're not, Its the Air-Tran guys who accept the low wages, which in turn causes Delta to try and match somehow.
My favorite is that "Aviation Genius" Neelman from JetBlue. He's on all these TV shows pontificating about how smart He is and How JetBlue has somehow unlocked the secret of profitability in the airline business. In reality He starts a new airline where every employee is on their first year pay, then He pays them sub-standard pay, gets a cherry deal from Airbus, and cherry picks the best routes...Now how could Delta or other legacy carrier compete when Delta has to pay their Capts 12 year pay, and their salaries are excellent! ditto for all the other workers in the company! So Delta's hurting and guys like skyhigh are laughing or saying that those dummies at Delta can't figure out the "new paradigm"
In about 8 years, hopefully pilots at JetBlue and Airtran and their ilk will be at higher salary levels, and I'll laugh when Neelman quits and starts JetRED with bottom feeders all the jetBlue pilots etc will feel the pain.
I don't wish ill will on these pilots, many are my friends but as pilots we can't keep on accepting these low salaries without realizing the consequences for the profession. I know its easy for me to say due to my position, and I feel for everyone of these guys.
11-22-2005, 01:19 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: CR7 Capt
Posts: 1,621
Hey, do think Airtran or Jet blue will have a union soon. What would it take to get a union in these airlines.
11-22-2005, 04:38 PM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 642
I'd venture to guess that after a couple of years of high profits the pilots at some of these airlines will feel they deserve a little extra, thats human nature. So If management is smart they will take care of their people, but if they don't a union is inevitable, along with contentious negotiations etc etc...
Seems the JetBlue guys are happy due to the stock and profit share which really helps augment the lower pay rates...but at some point If I were there, and helped start the company along the road to success, I'd expect managment to "do the right thing" When Neelman came out with those low rates for Embraer pilots His true colors shown.
Seems the JetBlue guys are happy due to the stock and profit share which really helps augment the lower pay rates...but at some point If I were there, and helped start the company along the road to success, I'd expect managment to "do the right thing" When Neelman came out with those low rates for Embraer pilots His true colors shown.
11-22-2005, 07:36 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,483
Don't forget that until the latest round of BKs, SWA was not nearly the highest 737 payscale on a per hour basis. Our previous contract in 1995 put our hourly rate at 90% of SWAs. Of course our rate stayed the same for the next 9 years while SWA went up but the real story at SWA has always been profit sharing and stock. That is how they make big bucks. I would be happy with a reasonable hourly rate but I want a piece of the rock, too. Our CEO makes above industry average then so should I. If I had f###ed up as much as our management has I would be buried 6 feet under.
Think about this as well. How many years do you have at the top of your payscale in most other professions? Here in ours you have to jerk gear for many years unless you timed the hiring cycle just right. You also have to count on your job not disappearing so you have the time to make it to the left seat land of milk and honey. Then, when you get there you discover that you only have a short period of time before you are fired at age 60 (short relative to the total number of years you put into this profession). Yes, 100k is a great salary and I am grateful each payday for my check but it can all go away so rapidly. Think of our high pay rates as compensation for the risk we take in just being in this profession.
Think about this as well. How many years do you have at the top of your payscale in most other professions? Here in ours you have to jerk gear for many years unless you timed the hiring cycle just right. You also have to count on your job not disappearing so you have the time to make it to the left seat land of milk and honey. Then, when you get there you discover that you only have a short period of time before you are fired at age 60 (short relative to the total number of years you put into this profession). Yes, 100k is a great salary and I am grateful each payday for my check but it can all go away so rapidly. Think of our high pay rates as compensation for the risk we take in just being in this profession.
11-22-2005, 08:08 PM
#50
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Vito
Vito,
That is my point. There are thousands upon thousands of unemployed or underemployed pilots who will eagerly take a job like Airtain for so much less. It is a matter of haves verses have nots. What are people like me supposed to do? UPS, FedEx and SWA only take a small few per year. There is a swelling army of people out there who lay in bed at night and dream of someday becoming a UPS scab. Politely asking them to not accept a position since the pay doesnt meet standards will not work.
SkyHigh
That is my point. There are thousands upon thousands of unemployed or underemployed pilots who will eagerly take a job like Airtain for so much less. It is a matter of haves verses have nots. What are people like me supposed to do? UPS, FedEx and SWA only take a small few per year. There is a swelling army of people out there who lay in bed at night and dream of someday becoming a UPS scab. Politely asking them to not accept a position since the pay doesnt meet standards will not work.
SkyHigh
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