So how much should a pilot be paid?
11-23-2005, 10:39 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 643
SkyHigh,
I see your point, A job at a lower paying airline is better than no job at all. I know in my case I was flying part time in the resrves, and driving a street sweeper at night (to pay for medical benefits) and I turned down a job at TWA in 1994 because the pay was an insult..I was doing OK but it was a struggle to make ends meet.
I guess I felt that after all the effort and sacrafice I put up with in the military I expected the reward of a high paying airline job. Everyone of us that accepts these low salaries just keeps dragging down the industry standard . Personally for the amount of time away from home, and all the other negative aspects of this job, I wouldn't do it for less than 6 figures. Seriously, any job in my neck of the woods (NY,NJ) pays as much and I'd be home everynight, which would be huge for my wife and kids! I know others have different circumstances and opinions, and I love this job!!!
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
I see your point, A job at a lower paying airline is better than no job at all. I know in my case I was flying part time in the resrves, and driving a street sweeper at night (to pay for medical benefits) and I turned down a job at TWA in 1994 because the pay was an insult..I was doing OK but it was a struggle to make ends meet.
I guess I felt that after all the effort and sacrafice I put up with in the military I expected the reward of a high paying airline job. Everyone of us that accepts these low salaries just keeps dragging down the industry standard . Personally for the amount of time away from home, and all the other negative aspects of this job, I wouldn't do it for less than 6 figures. Seriously, any job in my neck of the woods (NY,NJ) pays as much and I'd be home everynight, which would be huge for my wife and kids! I know others have different circumstances and opinions, and I love this job!!!
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
11-23-2005, 10:42 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 643
PS I doubt there are many out there dreaming about scabbing at any airline...I have no fear of that ever happening, and most pilots would agree that once your labeled a scab your life will be miserable..plus how many boxes will get delivered by the teamsters, and other unionized workers who will not handle struck goods!
11-23-2005, 04:27 PM
#53
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Scab
Vito,
At least a scab has a chance of making it. I don't know about your background but most in the civilian world find out very quickly if they are in the good pile or forever regional pile. Perhaps you had some good contacts or flew the shuttle to give you the confidence to pass on TWA, but the majority of us are permanently lost in the ocean of mediocrity. "Just what the world needs another Dash 8 captain." We can't turn our nose up at a chance with Airtrain or Allegiant, because it is probably the only opportunity we will ever get. Even the threat of being branded a "scab" has no teeth. Who cares? It is much better to be a has been then a never was. Your entire statement about being shunned by the Union is antiquated. It reminds me of the strange things my grandpa use to say.
SkyHigh
At least a scab has a chance of making it. I don't know about your background but most in the civilian world find out very quickly if they are in the good pile or forever regional pile. Perhaps you had some good contacts or flew the shuttle to give you the confidence to pass on TWA, but the majority of us are permanently lost in the ocean of mediocrity. "Just what the world needs another Dash 8 captain." We can't turn our nose up at a chance with Airtrain or Allegiant, because it is probably the only opportunity we will ever get. Even the threat of being branded a "scab" has no teeth. Who cares? It is much better to be a has been then a never was. Your entire statement about being shunned by the Union is antiquated. It reminds me of the strange things my grandpa use to say.
SkyHigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-23-2005 at 04:34 PM.
11-23-2005, 04:41 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: CR7 Capt
Posts: 1,621
Originally Posted by Vito
SkyHigh,
I see your point, A job at a lower paying airline is better than no job at all. I know in my case I was flying part time in the resrves, and driving a street sweeper at night (to pay for medical benefits) and I turned down a job at TWA in 1994 because the pay was an insult..I was doing OK but it was a struggle to make ends meet.
I guess I felt that after all the effort and sacrafice I put up with in the military I expected the reward of a high paying airline job. Everyone of us that accepts these low salaries just keeps dragging down the industry standard . Personally for the amount of time away from home, and all the other negative aspects of this job, I wouldn't do it for less than 6 figures. Seriously, any job in my neck of the woods (NY,NJ) pays as much and I'd be home everynight, which would be huge for my wife and kids! I know others have different circumstances and opinions, and I love this job!!!
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
I see your point, A job at a lower paying airline is better than no job at all. I know in my case I was flying part time in the resrves, and driving a street sweeper at night (to pay for medical benefits) and I turned down a job at TWA in 1994 because the pay was an insult..I was doing OK but it was a struggle to make ends meet.
I guess I felt that after all the effort and sacrafice I put up with in the military I expected the reward of a high paying airline job. Everyone of us that accepts these low salaries just keeps dragging down the industry standard . Personally for the amount of time away from home, and all the other negative aspects of this job, I wouldn't do it for less than 6 figures. Seriously, any job in my neck of the woods (NY,NJ) pays as much and I'd be home everynight, which would be huge for my wife and kids! I know others have different circumstances and opinions, and I love this job!!!
Have a Happy Thanksgiving!
As a new guy coming into the airline world what can we do? Most Airlines have the same low starting pay and it doesn't get all that better after that. What would bring up industry standards? I can only take whatever jobs are offered and use these regionals and commuters like Colgan or Expressjet as stepping stones to a higher paying job with a legacy carrier. I agree that making $18hr sucks. It should be double that as a first yr FO on a 1900 but, your lucky if you get double that as a 3-4yr RJ FO.
Chris
11-24-2005, 02:53 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 643
SkyHigh,
I'm a military pilot, still in the reserves. As far as the Scab issue goes, listen very CAREFULLY. I'm a hard core republican and I'm not one of these union fanatics that hates management and thinks corporations are the ultimate evil in the world. That being sad, there is a very important reason to have a union as a vehicle to represent the pilots, and their positions. I barely knew what a scab was, but if you think that it could be your chance at "grabbing the golden ring" think again
Examples: I was jumpseating on Continental once, I asked the Capt for the "ride" He said no problem, then I shook the co-pilots hand, the Captain said " He's a scab, don't acknowledge him" He quietly looked away. Friends at United fly with scabs, they don't talk to them on the flightdeck except for checklists, He said the scab always offered to buy dinner but noone would eat with him. They plan a fun night out on a layover with the flight attendents and personally tell the scab Captain He's not invited etc...I think It would make the job unbearable. ask around and You'll soon learn. Its not antiquated thinking. Look at JetBlue, they're all singing "Kumbaya" with Neelman, then Neeman decides to buy the EMB 190's. I told my JB friends that they should demand that the 190 pay scales equal the A-320 rates and try to do what we have at UPS, a single pay scale for all fleets. Instead Neelman offers his pilots a low commuter scale for the 190's. When I told my friends they should wave the BS flag they said "theres nothing we can do"
There is an important place for unions in our profession, they don't always need to be contentious and confrontational.
I'm a military pilot, still in the reserves. As far as the Scab issue goes, listen very CAREFULLY. I'm a hard core republican and I'm not one of these union fanatics that hates management and thinks corporations are the ultimate evil in the world. That being sad, there is a very important reason to have a union as a vehicle to represent the pilots, and their positions. I barely knew what a scab was, but if you think that it could be your chance at "grabbing the golden ring" think again
Examples: I was jumpseating on Continental once, I asked the Capt for the "ride" He said no problem, then I shook the co-pilots hand, the Captain said " He's a scab, don't acknowledge him" He quietly looked away. Friends at United fly with scabs, they don't talk to them on the flightdeck except for checklists, He said the scab always offered to buy dinner but noone would eat with him. They plan a fun night out on a layover with the flight attendents and personally tell the scab Captain He's not invited etc...I think It would make the job unbearable. ask around and You'll soon learn. Its not antiquated thinking. Look at JetBlue, they're all singing "Kumbaya" with Neelman, then Neeman decides to buy the EMB 190's. I told my JB friends that they should demand that the 190 pay scales equal the A-320 rates and try to do what we have at UPS, a single pay scale for all fleets. Instead Neelman offers his pilots a low commuter scale for the 190's. When I told my friends they should wave the BS flag they said "theres nothing we can do"
There is an important place for unions in our profession, they don't always need to be contentious and confrontational.
11-24-2005, 03:02 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 643
SkyHigh,
Another option, Get yourself into the good pile!!! Play the game, shake hands with people, introduce yourself. A friend I know flew into the UPS sort at 0300 AM and met a chief pilot who gave him a tour! He was hired a few weeks later!. I recommended He not do it, since It looked like he was "kissing ass" too much and I didn't think anyone important would be around at 0300, I was wrong! The other day in the SDF sort there were a bunch of "feeder pilots" sitting around (civilian contract pilots) one guy was in his early 20's and weighed about 300 lbs, who's gonna hire him? Its a game, sometimes you gotta kiss up or work the angles.....the jobs will materialize, these are by far the worst times ever for our industry..they can only get better.
Another option, Get yourself into the good pile!!! Play the game, shake hands with people, introduce yourself. A friend I know flew into the UPS sort at 0300 AM and met a chief pilot who gave him a tour! He was hired a few weeks later!. I recommended He not do it, since It looked like he was "kissing ass" too much and I didn't think anyone important would be around at 0300, I was wrong! The other day in the SDF sort there were a bunch of "feeder pilots" sitting around (civilian contract pilots) one guy was in his early 20's and weighed about 300 lbs, who's gonna hire him? Its a game, sometimes you gotta kiss up or work the angles.....the jobs will materialize, these are by far the worst times ever for our industry..they can only get better.
11-24-2005, 03:12 AM
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 757/767 Capt
Posts: 643
ERJ135,
At this juncture in the business you may have to accept these lower salaries, but work to increase the pay and the standards. I hear alot of these guys saying that making $220/hr is for 'dinosaurs'' and pompous 'Delta' guys, So what should we do? lay down at the alter of LCC's and work for chickenscratch? Get your airline job and accept your pay, but when the tides turn and your airline is making money don't sit back and accept below industry standard pay rates..UPS is trying to convince us that due to all the pay cuts around the airline industry, we should be happy to make what we make. After all we're close to the top right now! but give em a break UPS made over a BILLION $ profit last QUARTER!! Thats BILLION with a B, and quarter ,as in 4 per year, but I guess I should be happy to make what I was back in 1998...It doesn't work that way.. Good luck things will improve
At this juncture in the business you may have to accept these lower salaries, but work to increase the pay and the standards. I hear alot of these guys saying that making $220/hr is for 'dinosaurs'' and pompous 'Delta' guys, So what should we do? lay down at the alter of LCC's and work for chickenscratch? Get your airline job and accept your pay, but when the tides turn and your airline is making money don't sit back and accept below industry standard pay rates..UPS is trying to convince us that due to all the pay cuts around the airline industry, we should be happy to make what we make. After all we're close to the top right now! but give em a break UPS made over a BILLION $ profit last QUARTER!! Thats BILLION with a B, and quarter ,as in 4 per year, but I guess I should be happy to make what I was back in 1998...It doesn't work that way.. Good luck things will improve
11-24-2005, 06:40 AM
#58
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Vito
Vito,
I hear what you are saying, "read a few Tony Robbins books, learn to play golf". I have spent the last 16 years doing that very thing. I came close a few times, but the odds are not with me. It takes a lot to get into the good pile. Most of the variables are out of our control. Every year the military trains 11,000 new pilots then civilian world makes another 20,000. Each of these hopefuls are competing for the same 1500 new jobs that open (on average) at the majors. Therefore unless your dad is a well liked check airman at your favorite airline you are in the regional pile.
Over the years as I watch myself age and my peers begin to drop off like flies things tend to get a little desperate. I would eagerly jump at a chance to fly a 737 out of my home city for 60K or less as a captain. I would be one of the first in line if a legacy carrier put out the call for scabs and I would be quick about it since I know there will be a stampede of a few thousand hungry pilots. If all I have to loose is a frowny face from a crusty old captain then I will take it.
I like you and you are a very nice guy. It is my sincerest wish to be working with you but facts are facts. Like most other legacy carriers UPS hires friends, family and superstars. I am none of those. My best hope is to become a scab someday.
SkyHigh
I hear what you are saying, "read a few Tony Robbins books, learn to play golf". I have spent the last 16 years doing that very thing. I came close a few times, but the odds are not with me. It takes a lot to get into the good pile. Most of the variables are out of our control. Every year the military trains 11,000 new pilots then civilian world makes another 20,000. Each of these hopefuls are competing for the same 1500 new jobs that open (on average) at the majors. Therefore unless your dad is a well liked check airman at your favorite airline you are in the regional pile.
Over the years as I watch myself age and my peers begin to drop off like flies things tend to get a little desperate. I would eagerly jump at a chance to fly a 737 out of my home city for 60K or less as a captain. I would be one of the first in line if a legacy carrier put out the call for scabs and I would be quick about it since I know there will be a stampede of a few thousand hungry pilots. If all I have to loose is a frowny face from a crusty old captain then I will take it.
I like you and you are a very nice guy. It is my sincerest wish to be working with you but facts are facts. Like most other legacy carriers UPS hires friends, family and superstars. I am none of those. My best hope is to become a scab someday.
SkyHigh
11-24-2005, 07:48 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,408
Its pretty sad if that's your best hope. Freight dogs make more than the regionals. Its a decent job, though the schedule is what you have to deal with.This is most likely where I'll spend my career, it could be better,could be worse.
11-24-2005, 08:35 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Retired 121 pilot
Posts: 1,032
Originally Posted by SkyHigh
Vito,
I would be one of the first in line if a legacy carrier put out the call for scabs and I would be quick about it since I know there will be a stampede of a few thousand hungry pilots. If all I have to loose is a frowny face from a crusty old captain then I will take it.
My best hope is to become a scab someday.
I would be one of the first in line if a legacy carrier put out the call for scabs and I would be quick about it since I know there will be a stampede of a few thousand hungry pilots. If all I have to loose is a frowny face from a crusty old captain then I will take it.
My best hope is to become a scab someday.
Well, you certainly have set the bar low.
I would hope your post above is in jest.
If not, then I would suggest that you haven't done enough research on the subject. I'm not a scab, but I worked at an airline with scabs and trust me, it's not a pleasant life for them.How would you treat someone who tried to take your life style from you and your family?
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