Agreed. Southwest is unionized and they get along great together. A union is like owning a gun. Keep it for self-defense and everything is fine. Go waving it around the neighborhood scaring everybody, not so good.

Here's another gun analogy. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

What is it with all of you conspiracy theorists? I find it laughable that you would even type something like this! Just because a pilot feels we are better served with our current system should not indict them as a "management-lackey", "blue juicer", or "company man". I give the band of blue a lot of credit for posting their names for all to see rather than resort to the below-the-belt anonymous comments of those on this board and bluepilots.com.

I find it hard to believe that the company has anything to do with their campaign. I was just chatting with a guy involved with the band of blue, and he said he has never even been to Forest Hills or met Dave Barger! So much for the theory that this is a front for a company sponsored union-busting campaign. It is not that tough to create a website and print a few bag tags.

The continuous name calling and anger-driven rhetoric about these guys from the pro-union muckrakers has finally made me realize that we will be much better off keeping our current system intact. I do not want the radicals representing my needs and wants at a negotiating table. That would get us nowhere fast.

Don't get me wrong, JetBlue management definitely needs to step up to the plate and implement the necessary changes to appease a frustrated pilot group, but I still do not see how bringing the JBPA on board will get me better pay, benefits and healthcare. These are great JBPA campaign promises, but I have a hard time believing that we will see anything better than we have in place today just because we have a union representing us. I fear the JBPA leaders are in way over their heads, and though their passion and drive are admirable, I think their goal of making this a replica of SWAPA is a pipe dream. Herb bought into the SWA pilots' organizing campaign, but without Dave's support, this will not lead to a collaborative relationship that SWA has enjoyed over the years.

Make an informed decision, but please take the anger and emotion out of the equation.

 

Auburn,

Ok, we are radicals now, haha? Get over yourself already. I asked and posed a legitimate concern. Seems odd that this Band of Blue is so interested in not unionizing. If you don't want a union then your vote will count as much as mine, ok? Do you feel better now?

 

Quite the legitimate rebutall to the legitimate reply to your legitimate concern there, Herk.

 

Waterboarder,
Why don't you take the time to write an informative post listing the pro's and con's and why you feel JetBlue would be better without a union? You still, after all this time, resort to just quick attacks on anyone who writes something pro-union. Sounds like an insurgent method of attack to me. Your fellow JetBlue pilots have made some very good points about how a union could be a benefit for your pilot group, I still haven't seen one post from you offering advice on how you will all be better off with management alone. I think you've done a poor job so far of swaying the decision.

 

ALPA guy here who supports Jetblue Pilots. Much respect and good luck in the future.

 

Just wondering, are you on the 190, ya know the one with the industry leading wages? The one where the company pays a 4 year F.O. 58 dollars an hour? The one that your management friends refuse to pay a reputable rate? If you expect management to make everything ok then go ahead and vote the status quo. If you want some chance or at least a chance of increasing your fellow pilots quality of life and pay then vote for one voice, the JBPA voice.

There is no guarantee with a union and we all know that, but would you rather have some type of representation from guys you fly with or would you prefer to have your representation from management? Why do you think we get emails from the company stating we are better off with no union? Its because they dont want things to change. THEY are happy. They want all the power, is it that hard to see? If we have a union then management loses some control over us even if its psychological. Right now we have the fox guarding the hen house and you want that to continue? For 9 years this company has made promises, promises and more promises. After much consideratiion we sit here 9 years later with some of the lowest wages, benefits and retirement packages in the industry. Are you this naive? Seriously, take some pride in yourself and if you can't do that then have some pride for the guy sitting next to you and stop embarrassing our profession.

 

Herk, answers to some of your questions.

Yes, I am on the 190. No, I am not happy with our payrates. I do NOT have "management friends". I commute in, fly my trips, and commute home. As far as "voting the status quo", well that would be what would happen if I voted YES for the JBPA. Once a union is voted in, the music stops. Anything the company was working on in the spirit of improving our working conditions will be halted, current pay rates frozen and we move to your preferred negotiation process. Here's the reality of marching along that route: the first CBA will take YEARS to work out, and we will likely give up certain things to make improvements in other areas. What are you willing to give up?? I would rather give this management team another chance to make right some of the areas that were neglected from the PCRB report than try the third party approach. I have been there, done that, and in the end, nobody wins.

Why on Earth would I vote to freeze my crummy pay and benefits when the company can address these issues on a schedule not defined by the NMB. Our current system enables us the flexibility to address concerns as they arise. A CBA will only allow you to do so when a contract becomes amendable, and even then there is no guarantee of improvements. Sure, there are side letters that can be worked out, but even those take time and involve some kind of tradeoff.

Remember, a CBA is one agreement meant to meet all of the wants and needs of the pilot group. That is very difficult considering the different priorities of each pilot. Our current system allows us to maintain the terms of our individual agreements even if the company decides to make amendments. Neither system is perfect, but I just do not see a union being a vast improvement over the current system.

And you talk about our current representation coming from management. Last I checked, the PVC guys are elected by the pilots, not management. In fact, the last three guys elected were endorsed by JBPA! The PVC is flawed, but I do think they guys volunteering to represent us are trying to do right by this pilot group. The failure has been within the managment ranks. And that is what led to the frustrations that morphed into a union drive.

This is my third airline, and first non-union airline. Herk, how many airlines have you worked for, and how many were unionized? Read the band of blue's latest letter, written by former union leaders now working at JetBlue. If these folks with decades of collective union experience are not buying into the proposed benefits of the JBPA, then how can I? These are subject matter experts. How can one rufute their opinions based on experience. I cannot, as I was never involved with the unions at my former airlines. Unions were necessary insurance policies at my other carriers, meant to protect us from abusive management. I just do not see that need here YET. I am not too stubborn to say we may need a union here someday, but just not today.

You need to also ask the JBPA leaders about the costs involved in setting this union up. Ask anyone who has done union work. It comes at a steep financial price. I do not believe they will be able to stick to their vision of 1% dues and no assessments. Their plans are ambiguous and they leave everything open to "what the membership wants". How can I trust this proposed system anymore than what we have in place now?

I appreciate your concern for my welfare as a lowly E190 pilot, but this is not just about pay rates. I want this place to be viable for the long haul so I can make it a career stop. With that said, I need to make sure that I do my part to protect not only my own interests, but the company's as well. If you fail to see the logic in that, then maybe you should go work for a unionized carrier and tell me all about how much fun it is to show up for work in a hostile environment. JetBlue needs a lot of improvement, but the picture you paint is quite distorted. This place is still a work in progress, you just need to have some patience. Just ask the 320 Captains who signed up to work here for a paltry $86/hour 10 years ago.

Let's continue to debate the issues but leave the name calling to the other boards.

 

Auburn,

In response to your questions. First, I am willing to give up 2% to fund a union, you want to play you have to pay. We all know that there are no free lunches in this world. What if we got a 10% pay raise from the unions efforts? Would it be worth a net of 8%? Obviously there is not a guarantee of anything if we have a union, we have established that. What are we getting now? We have not progressed in 9 years, that is not an opinion, that is a fact in black and white in the pcrb.

Second, this is my second airline and I was an Air Force dude in my previous life. You said the failure with our current system lies within the management ranks, correct? What will change then if we don't unionize? If THEY have failed to make things right and we don't do a darn thing then where is the accountability? How many years will it take management to make us whole? Management loves the status quo because we are powerless as 2000 individual voices. Is a chain stronger with 2000 individual links or is that chain stronger as one? Think about it? The Army's slogan is an Army of One, not an Army of a half million individuals. Why? Because its psychological.

When Delta or someone like them steps in with a hostile takeover what happens to you? This b.s. about our contract is a joke. At the end of 5 years they can dump you like yesterday's trash right? The company can tell us whatever they want but read your agreement, we are here for five years and if a company came in they could dump us one by one as our contracts expired. Its absolutely ridiculous that some of you believe we are safe with these contracts. They are temporary pieces of paper that guarantees us 5 years and that's it.

You say the band of blue isn't buying into the union then why should you? My answer to that is why shouldn't you? Are you following the band of blue because they are not buying into the union or because you have done your research? My research is based on facts not what other people are doing. I know the pcrb says we are one of the lowest paid pilot groups with substandard benefits. Read the pcrb, once again going back to facts not opinions. Is the band of blue being promised something by management if they convince us to not vote a union in? Is it possible there are dealings going on that we are unaware of? Probably not, but do you know for sure?

You say how can you trust the proposed system versus what we have in place now? Once again, factual information guides my decision. Do you think its ok for you to be paid 58 dollars an hour on the 190 after 4 years? The question is how can such a great company pay such a substandard pay rate. If you don't believe you are worth more money and benefits then we already have a big problem.

No I don't want to work for another carrier, I want us to fix our problems here. You say have fun going to work at a unionized carrier and working in a hostile environment. Southwest is unionized, is it hostile there? Unionizing doesn't mean we will have a hostile work environment, so basically your making an assumption which is far from fact.

You also say that I paint a distorted picture. I do? I just stated my decision comes from facts based on the pcrb, managements decisions over the last 9 years and pror performance. There is no distortion, its very clear to many of us and I think your going to see a union passage in February.

You say I need patience? Ok tell me when the patience runs out? Dont give me an answer like we will have to wait and see because that's what management says. Give me an actual date that says if we are not on par with the industry we will do what? We can't strike. So what is your plan, how much patience Auburn? 10 more years, a month, 3 years? What is our plan? To put it frankly, we don't have one. We are hoping management does the right thing, very dangerous for our career. Ya see when you don't have a plan and you say things like "lets be patient" that's when management starts to salivate. They know those types of answers = disorganized. No answers from pilots = more leverage for management.

 

A lot of these "non-union" guys sound like they'd be PERFECT investors for a guy named Bernie Madoff. He'll promise you the world while screwing you with a vengeance, and you won't find out until it's too late and you've lost everything. If you think management wants to keep you happy and will tend to your needs, you need to go back to business 101 classes. They are NOT there to help you, but to make money for themselves and the shareholders. Pilots are the LAST group they are worried about making "happy".