Band of Blue
01-05-2009 | 08:04 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
From: Switch, Lever & Light Specialist
Herk, answers to some of your questions.
Yes, I am on the 190. No, I am not happy with our payrates. I do NOT have "management friends". I commute in, fly my trips, and commute home. As far as "voting the status quo", well that would be what would happen if I voted YES for the JBPA. Once a union is voted in, the music stops. Anything the company was working on in the spirit of improving our working conditions will be halted, current pay rates frozen and we move to your preferred negotiation process. Here's the reality of marching along that route: the first CBA will take YEARS to work out, and we will likely give up certain things to make improvements in other areas. What are you willing to give up?? I would rather give this management team another chance to make right some of the areas that were neglected from the PCRB report than try the third party approach. I have been there, done that, and in the end, nobody wins.
Why on Earth would I vote to freeze my crummy pay and benefits when the company can address these issues on a schedule not defined by the NMB. Our current system enables us the flexibility to address concerns as they arise. A CBA will only allow you to do so when a contract becomes amendable, and even then there is no guarantee of improvements. Sure, there are side letters that can be worked out, but even those take time and involve some kind of tradeoff.
Remember, a CBA is one agreement meant to meet all of the wants and needs of the pilot group. That is very difficult considering the different priorities of each pilot. Our current system allows us to maintain the terms of our individual agreements even if the company decides to make amendments. Neither system is perfect, but I just do not see a union being a vast improvement over the current system.
And you talk about our current representation coming from management. Last I checked, the PVC guys are elected by the pilots, not management. In fact, the last three guys elected were endorsed by JBPA! The PVC is flawed, but I do think they guys volunteering to represent us are trying to do right by this pilot group. The failure has been within the managment ranks. And that is what led to the frustrations that morphed into a union drive.
This is my third airline, and first non-union airline. Herk, how many airlines have you worked for, and how many were unionized? Read the band of blue's latest letter, written by former union leaders now working at JetBlue. If these folks with decades of collective union experience are not buying into the proposed benefits of the JBPA, then how can I? These are subject matter experts. How can one rufute their opinions based on experience. I cannot, as I was never involved with the unions at my former airlines. Unions were necessary insurance policies at my other carriers, meant to protect us from abusive management. I just do not see that need here YET. I am not too stubborn to say we may need a union here someday, but just not today.
You need to also ask the JBPA leaders about the costs involved in setting this union up. Ask anyone who has done union work. It comes at a steep financial price. I do not believe they will be able to stick to their vision of 1% dues and no assessments. Their plans are ambiguous and they leave everything open to "what the membership wants". How can I trust this proposed system anymore than what we have in place now?
I appreciate your concern for my welfare as a lowly E190 pilot, but this is not just about pay rates. I want this place to be viable for the long haul so I can make it a career stop. With that said, I need to make sure that I do my part to protect not only my own interests, but the company's as well. If you fail to see the logic in that, then maybe you should go work for a unionized carrier and tell me all about how much fun it is to show up for work in a hostile environment. JetBlue needs a lot of improvement, but the picture you paint is quite distorted. This place is still a work in progress, you just need to have some patience. Just ask the 320 Captains who signed up to work here for a paltry $86/hour 10 years ago.
Let's continue to debate the issues but leave the name calling to the other boards.
Yes, I am on the 190. No, I am not happy with our payrates. I do NOT have "management friends". I commute in, fly my trips, and commute home. As far as "voting the status quo", well that would be what would happen if I voted YES for the JBPA. Once a union is voted in, the music stops. Anything the company was working on in the spirit of improving our working conditions will be halted, current pay rates frozen and we move to your preferred negotiation process. Here's the reality of marching along that route: the first CBA will take YEARS to work out, and we will likely give up certain things to make improvements in other areas. What are you willing to give up?? I would rather give this management team another chance to make right some of the areas that were neglected from the PCRB report than try the third party approach. I have been there, done that, and in the end, nobody wins.
Why on Earth would I vote to freeze my crummy pay and benefits when the company can address these issues on a schedule not defined by the NMB. Our current system enables us the flexibility to address concerns as they arise. A CBA will only allow you to do so when a contract becomes amendable, and even then there is no guarantee of improvements. Sure, there are side letters that can be worked out, but even those take time and involve some kind of tradeoff.
Remember, a CBA is one agreement meant to meet all of the wants and needs of the pilot group. That is very difficult considering the different priorities of each pilot. Our current system allows us to maintain the terms of our individual agreements even if the company decides to make amendments. Neither system is perfect, but I just do not see a union being a vast improvement over the current system.
And you talk about our current representation coming from management. Last I checked, the PVC guys are elected by the pilots, not management. In fact, the last three guys elected were endorsed by JBPA! The PVC is flawed, but I do think they guys volunteering to represent us are trying to do right by this pilot group. The failure has been within the managment ranks. And that is what led to the frustrations that morphed into a union drive.
This is my third airline, and first non-union airline. Herk, how many airlines have you worked for, and how many were unionized? Read the band of blue's latest letter, written by former union leaders now working at JetBlue. If these folks with decades of collective union experience are not buying into the proposed benefits of the JBPA, then how can I? These are subject matter experts. How can one rufute their opinions based on experience. I cannot, as I was never involved with the unions at my former airlines. Unions were necessary insurance policies at my other carriers, meant to protect us from abusive management. I just do not see that need here YET. I am not too stubborn to say we may need a union here someday, but just not today.
You need to also ask the JBPA leaders about the costs involved in setting this union up. Ask anyone who has done union work. It comes at a steep financial price. I do not believe they will be able to stick to their vision of 1% dues and no assessments. Their plans are ambiguous and they leave everything open to "what the membership wants". How can I trust this proposed system anymore than what we have in place now?
I appreciate your concern for my welfare as a lowly E190 pilot, but this is not just about pay rates. I want this place to be viable for the long haul so I can make it a career stop. With that said, I need to make sure that I do my part to protect not only my own interests, but the company's as well. If you fail to see the logic in that, then maybe you should go work for a unionized carrier and tell me all about how much fun it is to show up for work in a hostile environment. JetBlue needs a lot of improvement, but the picture you paint is quite distorted. This place is still a work in progress, you just need to have some patience. Just ask the 320 Captains who signed up to work here for a paltry $86/hour 10 years ago.
Let's continue to debate the issues but leave the name calling to the other boards.
Great suggestion.
Instead of working to improve the lives of the JetBlue pilots and the industry as a whole, you'd suggest putting your tail between your legs and moving on to a new carrier. Without a legally binding CBA, your mgmt (or some other mgmt) will continue to erode the industry through poor pay/ work rules, etc...Auburn, your attitude is precisely what's wrong w/ this industry today! Not enough pilots willing to step up to the plate and actually DO SOMETHING to improve our profession. Don't be a naive pawn in this career. Instead, try getting out in front and working to improve all of our jobs.....we can collectively improve the industry one legally-binding contract at a time. It's really up to your mgmt group; but, being unionized doesn't preclude your mgmt/ pilot group from having an mutually respectful relationship. Perhaps it will take several years. Perhaps it won't. However, one thing is certain, we must stop looking out for the individual pilot and start helping the profession. By doing so, you will inadvertently improve your career expectations and those of every other pilot to follow in your footsteps. Start looking at the big picture, not the egocentric view, you might find you'll actually have a career to look back upon when you retire.
Vote union, vote for the profession!
01-05-2009 | 08:13 PM
#82
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Auburn,
I hear you and it sounds like our differences lie in timing. You believe wait, I don't. I have to agree with greedy though. Wait till next year you say if the company doesn't act? We already know the company is not going to act so for me I am not going to wait, but I understand your position. I can't wait any longer and based on some of the examples that I have heard about I can't see how guys/gals are going to wait either. The time has come and our chance at having a cba will take time we understand that.
I hear people saying it could take years to get a cba, ok so what are we waiting for then? A cba has structure and the company will have to follow a cba or we grieve it, which means we have some control. How do we grieve current problems? We don't and thats the problem. No guidelines, no structure, no rules, no nothing. My time has come to vote yes and its time we, as pilots say enough. My decision is not one from the heart, its not emotional, its simply a business decision. Management is not our buddy, their job is to create profits for shareholders and to answer to the board of directors. They have no obligation to us and that is enough for me to say yes on JBPA.
I hear you and it sounds like our differences lie in timing. You believe wait, I don't. I have to agree with greedy though. Wait till next year you say if the company doesn't act? We already know the company is not going to act so for me I am not going to wait, but I understand your position. I can't wait any longer and based on some of the examples that I have heard about I can't see how guys/gals are going to wait either. The time has come and our chance at having a cba will take time we understand that.
I hear people saying it could take years to get a cba, ok so what are we waiting for then? A cba has structure and the company will have to follow a cba or we grieve it, which means we have some control. How do we grieve current problems? We don't and thats the problem. No guidelines, no structure, no rules, no nothing. My time has come to vote yes and its time we, as pilots say enough. My decision is not one from the heart, its not emotional, its simply a business decision. Management is not our buddy, their job is to create profits for shareholders and to answer to the board of directors. They have no obligation to us and that is enough for me to say yes on JBPA.
If the vote fails, I would expect the company to act upon some of the concerns of the pilot group fairly quickly. They will need to empower the PVC to act as our dues-free union, and give our elected representatives the resources necessary to make them more accesible to their constituents (like a physical office). If the company moves in this direction, the PVC could ultimately become a more valuable advocacy group for the pilot group. This might convince some of our fellow pilots of the fact that we already have a representative body in place, albeit an underutilized one.
I think the next few weeks will be an interesting time for JetBlue, and cannot predict the outcome (where is that magic 8-Ball?). I do plan on dialing into the JBPA meeting tomorrow to see if some questions will finally be answered regarding their plans if they win the vote.
No matter the outcome of the election, I do believe we will all be able to move forward and continue to do our jobs together, though I am afraid their will be a noticeable change to the atmosphere. Union supporters might look forward to that, but those of us who came to JetBlue to get away from the poisonous cultures of our previous airlines, will be mourning what once was a pleasant place to work.
01-05-2009 | 08:27 PM
#83
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Great suggestion. Instead of working to improve the lives of the JetBlue pilots and the industry as a whole, you'd suggest putting your tail between your legs and moving on to a new carrier. Without a legally binding CBA, your mgmt (or some other mgmt) will continue to erode the industry through poor pay/ work rules, etc...
Auburn, your attitude is precisely what's wrong w/ this industry today! Not enough pilots willing to step up to the plate and actually DO SOMETHING to improve our profession. Don't be a naive pawn in this career. Instead, try getting out in front and working to improve all of our jobs.....we can collectively improve the industry one legally-binding contract at a time. It's really up to your mgmt group; but, being unionized doesn't preclude your mgmt/ pilot group from having an mutually respectful relationship. Perhaps it will take several years. Perhaps it won't. However, one thing is certain, we must stop looking out for the individual pilot and start helping the profession. By doing so, you will inadvertently improve your career expectations and those of every other pilot to follow in your footsteps. Start looking at the big picture, not the egocentric view, you might find you'll actually have a career to look back upon when you retire.
Vote union, vote for the profession!
Instead of working to improve the lives of the JetBlue pilots and the industry as a whole, you'd suggest putting your tail between your legs and moving on to a new carrier. Without a legally binding CBA, your mgmt (or some other mgmt) will continue to erode the industry through poor pay/ work rules, etc...Auburn, your attitude is precisely what's wrong w/ this industry today! Not enough pilots willing to step up to the plate and actually DO SOMETHING to improve our profession. Don't be a naive pawn in this career. Instead, try getting out in front and working to improve all of our jobs.....we can collectively improve the industry one legally-binding contract at a time. It's really up to your mgmt group; but, being unionized doesn't preclude your mgmt/ pilot group from having an mutually respectful relationship. Perhaps it will take several years. Perhaps it won't. However, one thing is certain, we must stop looking out for the individual pilot and start helping the profession. By doing so, you will inadvertently improve your career expectations and those of every other pilot to follow in your footsteps. Start looking at the big picture, not the egocentric view, you might find you'll actually have a career to look back upon when you retire.
Vote union, vote for the profession!
Good luck at your airline with your battles with management. I could not wait to get away from that, and am much happier here. I only hope we stay this way so you might be able to appreciate the difference as well.
Thanks for your concern.
01-05-2009 | 08:40 PM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 712
Likes: 0
Herk, it seems we finally understand each other. I respect your position and decision, though I plan on tearing up my ballot as soon as it arrives. I agree that we need to formalize a grievance process, BUT the PVC was working towards that until the petition was filed and we went into laboratory conditions. I also learned that the PVC was working on having the FSM incorporated into our working agreements, thus protecting us from unilateral changes. These are things the PVC did a poor job of keeping the pilot group aware of, so I do think they played a part in bringing this union drive upon us.
If the vote fails, I would expect the company to act upon some of the concerns of the pilot group fairly quickly. They will need to empower the PVC to act as our dues-free union, and give our elected representatives the resources necessary to make them more accesible to their constituents (like a physical office). If the company moves in this direction, the PVC could ultimately become a more valuable advocacy group for the pilot group. This might convince some of our fellow pilots of the fact that we already have a representative body in place, albeit an underutilized one.
I think the next few weeks will be an interesting time for JetBlue, and cannot predict the outcome (where is that magic 8-Ball?). I do plan on dialing into the JBPA meeting tomorrow to see if some questions will finally be answered regarding their plans if they win the vote.
No matter the outcome of the election, I do believe we will all be able to move forward and continue to do our jobs together, though I am afraid their will be a noticeable change to the atmosphere. Union supporters might look forward to that, but those of us who came to JetBlue to get away from the poisonous cultures of our previous airlines, will be mourning what once was a pleasant place to work.
If the vote fails, I would expect the company to act upon some of the concerns of the pilot group fairly quickly. They will need to empower the PVC to act as our dues-free union, and give our elected representatives the resources necessary to make them more accesible to their constituents (like a physical office). If the company moves in this direction, the PVC could ultimately become a more valuable advocacy group for the pilot group. This might convince some of our fellow pilots of the fact that we already have a representative body in place, albeit an underutilized one.
I think the next few weeks will be an interesting time for JetBlue, and cannot predict the outcome (where is that magic 8-Ball?). I do plan on dialing into the JBPA meeting tomorrow to see if some questions will finally be answered regarding their plans if they win the vote.
No matter the outcome of the election, I do believe we will all be able to move forward and continue to do our jobs together, though I am afraid their will be a noticeable change to the atmosphere. Union supporters might look forward to that, but those of us who came to JetBlue to get away from the poisonous cultures of our previous airlines, will be mourning what once was a pleasant place to work.
You said the following
"I would expect the company to act upon some of the concerns of the pilot group fairly quickly."
My question to you is fairly straight forward. If the company does not act then what is your plan? How are you going to ensure they really do hear our concerns? With no cba and no rules what will you do personally to help your 2000 fellow pilots?
01-05-2009 | 09:26 PM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
From: A320
I have another questions for you Auburn 9 (or dan t,as you are sounding just like him):
1-how can the company provide the protections I talked about on my previous post (to name juts a few) without a cba? you will not find the answer in wikipedia by the way.
2-what will you say to those pilots affected if the election fail?
3- will you call them collateral damage?
4- will you tell them to wait a couple more years ? will you just choose to leave them behind?
please answer those question directly( the BOB, F &H , and our leadership can't ) . by the way the "we will figure something out" does not count .
1-how can the company provide the protections I talked about on my previous post (to name juts a few) without a cba? you will not find the answer in wikipedia by the way.
2-what will you say to those pilots affected if the election fail?
3- will you call them collateral damage?
4- will you tell them to wait a couple more years ? will you just choose to leave them behind?
please answer those question directly( the BOB, F &H , and our leadership can't ) . by the way the "we will figure something out" does not count .
01-06-2009 | 03:06 PM
#87
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 749
Likes: 4
From: Blue fifi flogger
Auburn:
For the record, I like JB and most days enjoy coming to work here. But when we drop the ball, we drop it big.
I have been through multiple situations where various of our "values" were blatantly ignored (usually by C/S and/or Gate agents), and the feed-back from the CP's office is universal: "Gee, that's horrible, you're absolutely right, we dropped the ball on that, thanks for the takeaway". I have also gone through the PVC resolution process to no avail. My point is that there is no accountability to us when JetBlue does screw us, and when that happens it tends to be in spectacular fashion. Dave B may have our best interest in his heart but I promise nobody below him does.
I am pro-JBPA because I want some recourse for ruined holidays, missed commutes, illegal re-assignments, etc. "Thanks for all you do" is not enough anymore when C/S whipes its collective ass with the FSM, and I'm even a line-holder! (This is in addition to the usual concerns about sub-standard benefits, salary, lack of scope, etc).
For the record, I like JB and most days enjoy coming to work here. But when we drop the ball, we drop it big.
I have been through multiple situations where various of our "values" were blatantly ignored (usually by C/S and/or Gate agents), and the feed-back from the CP's office is universal: "Gee, that's horrible, you're absolutely right, we dropped the ball on that, thanks for the takeaway". I have also gone through the PVC resolution process to no avail. My point is that there is no accountability to us when JetBlue does screw us, and when that happens it tends to be in spectacular fashion. Dave B may have our best interest in his heart but I promise nobody below him does.
I am pro-JBPA because I want some recourse for ruined holidays, missed commutes, illegal re-assignments, etc. "Thanks for all you do" is not enough anymore when C/S whipes its collective ass with the FSM, and I'm even a line-holder! (This is in addition to the usual concerns about sub-standard benefits, salary, lack of scope, etc).
01-06-2009 | 05:29 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 712
Likes: 0
Auburn:
For the record, I like JB and most days enjoy coming to work here. But when we drop the ball, we drop it big.
I have been through multiple situations where various of our "values" were blatantly ignored (usually by C/S and/or Gate agents), and the feed-back from the CP's office is universal: "Gee, that's horrible, you're absolutely right, we dropped the ball on that, thanks for the takeaway". I have also gone through the PVC resolution process to no avail. My point is that there is no accountability to us when JetBlue does screw us, and when that happens it tends to be in spectacular fashion. Dave B may have our best interest in his heart but I promise nobody below him doe
I am pro-JBPA because I want some recourse for ruined holidays, missed commutes, illegal re-assignments, etc. "Thanks for all you do" is not enough anymore when C/S whipes its collective ass with the FSM, and I'm even a line-holder! (This is in addition to the usual concerns about sub-standard benefits, salary, lack of scope, etc).
For the record, I like JB and most days enjoy coming to work here. But when we drop the ball, we drop it big.
I have been through multiple situations where various of our "values" were blatantly ignored (usually by C/S and/or Gate agents), and the feed-back from the CP's office is universal: "Gee, that's horrible, you're absolutely right, we dropped the ball on that, thanks for the takeaway". I have also gone through the PVC resolution process to no avail. My point is that there is no accountability to us when JetBlue does screw us, and when that happens it tends to be in spectacular fashion. Dave B may have our best interest in his heart but I promise nobody below him doe
I am pro-JBPA because I want some recourse for ruined holidays, missed commutes, illegal re-assignments, etc. "Thanks for all you do" is not enough anymore when C/S whipes its collective ass with the FSM, and I'm even a line-holder! (This is in addition to the usual concerns about sub-standard benefits, salary, lack of scope, etc).
You are correct, crew services does whatever they want. They once told me on a junior assignment that the flight scheduling manual was just "something to use as a guideline." Does this crap happen at other airlines? I mean can a union carrier tell a guy "no we are not going to follow the cba, you just have to live with it?" Why do we have a flight scheduling manual in the first place if they are going to make up rules as they go? This is one of the reasons I am voting for JBPA. The gross neglect for our quality of life and scheduling snafu's alone should make us all look in the mirror and ask what are we doing at this airline.
01-06-2009 | 05:45 PM
#89
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Auburn:
For the record, I like JB and most days enjoy coming to work here. But when we drop the ball, we drop it big.
I have been through multiple situations where various of our "values" were blatantly ignored (usually by C/S and/or Gate agents), and the feed-back from the CP's office is universal: "Gee, that's horrible, you're absolutely right, we dropped the ball on that, thanks for the takeaway". I have also gone through the PVC resolution process to no avail. My point is that there is no accountability to us when JetBlue does screw us, and when that happens it tends to be in spectacular fashion. Dave B may have our best interest in his heart but I promise nobody below him does.
I am pro-JBPA because I want some recourse for ruined holidays, missed commutes, illegal re-assignments, etc. "Thanks for all you do" is not enough anymore when C/S whipes its collective ass with the FSM, and I'm even a line-holder! (This is in addition to the usual concerns about sub-standard benefits, salary, lack of scope, etc).
For the record, I like JB and most days enjoy coming to work here. But when we drop the ball, we drop it big.
I have been through multiple situations where various of our "values" were blatantly ignored (usually by C/S and/or Gate agents), and the feed-back from the CP's office is universal: "Gee, that's horrible, you're absolutely right, we dropped the ball on that, thanks for the takeaway". I have also gone through the PVC resolution process to no avail. My point is that there is no accountability to us when JetBlue does screw us, and when that happens it tends to be in spectacular fashion. Dave B may have our best interest in his heart but I promise nobody below him does.
I am pro-JBPA because I want some recourse for ruined holidays, missed commutes, illegal re-assignments, etc. "Thanks for all you do" is not enough anymore when C/S whipes its collective ass with the FSM, and I'm even a line-holder! (This is in addition to the usual concerns about sub-standard benefits, salary, lack of scope, etc).
You sound like a pretty level-headed guy that shows up to work with a sense of pride in your job. I understand that you have grown tired and frustrated by the way you have been mistreated (me too). Though I do not know the specifics of your issues, it sounds like it might be more of a process that is flawed here. Again, do you foresee a union being able to address these process problems? I do not. I am concerned about my future, and ability to ensure my family's financial security. With that, I cannot vote YES, as that would ensure that I would have to live with the terms of my agreement for as many years as it takes to negotiate a CBA. And what do you foresee us gaining as a pilot group when a CBA is finally signed. There is no guarantee we would have anything more than we have now. Is that worth a cut of your paycheck? Not mine. Unfortunately, the JBPA guys have not been able to offer me anything better than a pipe dream of what they would like to see once the union is certified. That is not enough to convince me that we have reached our last resort. I might eat my words in a year, but then again, the JBPA might eat their's.
I learned recently from a dude in my crashpad that the PVC was working on developing a committee structure to work on things like a formalized grievance process before the union announcement. Nothing can be done now while we are in laboratory conditions, but why not give these guys a chance to implement significant changes to our PVC? You and I are both unhappy with our current deal, but disagree on how to improve it in the near-term. A union will only serve to slow everything down, so I will stick with the current system FOR NOW.
01-06-2009 | 06:09 PM
#90
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Ae,
You are correct, crew services does whatever they want. They once told me on a junior assignment that the flight scheduling manual was just "something to use as a guideline." Does this crap happen at other airlines? I mean can a union carrier tell a guy "no we are not going to follow the cba, you just have to live with it?" Why do we have a flight scheduling manual in the first place if they are going to make up rules as they go? This is one of the reasons I am voting for JBPA. The gross neglect for our quality of life and scheduling snafu's alone should make us all look in the mirror and ask what are we doing at this airline.
You are correct, crew services does whatever they want. They once told me on a junior assignment that the flight scheduling manual was just "something to use as a guideline." Does this crap happen at other airlines? I mean can a union carrier tell a guy "no we are not going to follow the cba, you just have to live with it?" Why do we have a flight scheduling manual in the first place if they are going to make up rules as they go? This is one of the reasons I am voting for JBPA. The gross neglect for our quality of life and scheduling snafu's alone should make us all look in the mirror and ask what are we doing at this airline.
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