Like I have said, We need to decide as an industry to do this.

I do not see many regulators, unionists, or managers willing. This industry is politically energized and when people under oath state there is not an issue with the set up, we have a long way to go.

We are moving a few steps at a time, and that is progress. If the regulations that are proposed to not get watered down, the cost of Connection flying will go up exponentially. Cost and money is the ultimate motivator.

We as pilots need to stop pointing fingers at each other. I have been on both sides of the fence, and the blame game serves none of us well.

 

It seems that many of them have given most of theirs up anyway through paycuts loss of pension etc... Maybe if we all played on the same team we would get something productive done. I can dream right.

 

The catch 22 is that the WB guys and unions are not trying to save the top pay for the FAE figures for the pensions. That will ultimately bite em.

 

True, but now it's a matter of holding on to what little they've go left. Of course you can dream.

But how would you deal with this problem? You know as well as anybody else, there's only so much negotiation capitol to go around. Do you spend in on the top guys trying to ensure the FAE for retirement? If you did, who's to say it'll be there for the junior guys that got sacrificed on the process? Or, spread it around so that every pilot on property gets a piece of the pie? Like I said, there's only been a very brief period of time where both of those occurred recently.

And yep, I agree with you, this industry, and more specifically this career needs so much overhaul that accomplishing ANY of it will be a miracle.

 

Just a question, how many hours do you think the avg, F-16 pilot has before he graduates from flight school? Do you know what the screening process is for fighter school is today for USAF?
CO ANG F-16 Squadron just had a young pilot fly his 200th hour as PIC in his F-16 and 100th hour in an F-16. So you and your 200 hour wonder wings is bologna just like your last posting. Get over it!

 

This is where the real problem lies: one would think they have the best intentions with what they do, especially in the union, however reality paints a much different picture. I'm sure the pilots that gave away scope didn't expect it to become what it is today; hindsight is always 20/20. Everyone is screaming for regional reform but no one is willing to take the difficult steps required to do this. This is completely an internal problem that is between pilots and our respective airline managements. Dragging the news media, the public, and especially congress into this is going to have unforeseen consequences that are negative.

Requiring 1500hr and an ATP is not going to raise pay....since when has experience ever been the case for or basis of pilot pay? It has always been years of service with your airline. People thinking this is going to change is absurd. Other pilots are not going to shoulder the burden of future pilots for the benefit of the public's safety. Our pay is what the union has bargained on our behalf. The top w2 at DAL mainline is over $300K, the bottom at one of its regional carriers is just above $16K. $125K is the average pay for all pilots from DCI and DAL mainline together.

If current pilots aren't willing to sacrifice their compensation to raise the entry level salaries then management has two options: 1) Hire people who meet the time requirements and are willing to make those salaries, but do not fit other categories of a desirable candidate(violations, DUI's, etc) or 2) Lower the minimums to fill the positions. You are exchanging option 2 for option 1 with the ATP requirement.

Be careful what we wish for........

 

Do RJ's hurt Major airlines?

No, they made the modern hub and spoke airline. Pre deregulation flying MD-80's to Bakersfield days are far behind us. The only successful airline models are Southwest point to point (and getting less point to point everyday) and the hub and spoke. This is what the market demanded and that is what the flying public got.

Why don't you get all the jet flying at mainline?

Because the airlines, the pilot unions and the pilot's flying at the mainline don't really want it. The guy who said that the regionals is the new B scale is right on. Why would a guy flying at the mainline invest any bargaining capital in bring back the smaller jets? He has a job. The only reason we are talking about this is because the "seniority treadmill" has stopped (because of the economy and age 65). ALPA gets paid on both ends, so why fight it. In two or three years, it will fade into the background.

Refuse to hire RJ pilots?

Not to sound like a broken record, but the unions don't hire pilots. Why would an airline not hire someone who is doing the same job for years and thousands of hours? Who else? The military guys already go to the front of the line and there are fewer every day. Do you want a UAV pilot instead of a RJ pilot. Remember that all of the RJ pilots are union paying members. If I were flying at a regional and ALPA said don't hire me, how long will ALPA be at my regional? Even if I got on, would I all of sudden become the rah rah union guy knowing that you tried to stick it to me?

Start hiring turboprop guys and FAR 135?

Let's see, I could choose someone who is doing the very same job for me or one of my competitors or I could go out on a limb and hire an "unknown quantity". Maybe the guy's great, maybe not. Will I invest the money to find out? No.

Minimum time requirements?

Sounds good on paper. First, the only reason why total times were low was because we ran low on pilots. That won't be a problem for awhile, until the numbers drop. I believe in the almighty buck and those universities need to draw in people, so I think there will always be that exception to the rule. It may not be Gulfstream, but it may be Purdue or UND. Worse case, there will be someone with a C-172 or PA28 running 1000 hr time builder specials.

 

You all make a lot of points, and I agree with many of them. The latter threads seem to be very accurate and would be better seen to EVERYONE out there - especially customers! It bothers me to see that some of the earlier threads in this conversation pit pilots against pilots, and we all know that's not fair. As an outsider (merely an aviation buff and commercial aviation customer) who lurks on these boards, I see what looks to be a major management problem, as well as a major regulatory problem. The FAA doesn't have the balls to state the real underlying problems, management wants the cheapest labor no matter what (they are more concerned about maximizing short-term shareholder value over long-term value), and customers are too blind to realize that they're getting contracted flights from who-knows-who. The guys running the contracted carriers are doing their best and so are the pilots, so they can't be totally blamed (unless they're RAH, because they blew midwest :-) don't get too offended unless you're an RAH manager - if you are, have a nice day). I work for a marginal local non-profit that routinely hires less-than-optimal people. My salary is less than even that of the bottom-of-the-rung regional pilot so I can't blame ambitious people for taking the work, but at the same time, no lives are really at stake as a result of my work. If regional pilots are recruited with less than optimal training at less than optimal salaries, they're not to blame - they just want a job and are willing to take one up the ### to get there! Regardless of my little side-track and whatever our opinions are of regional pilots and aircraft, let's not forget that most of these problems originate with customers (and their search for the lowest possible fares, yet still expecting f__ing caviar and free hookers), management (their lust for making the best possible bottom line for future promotions - at any cost), and regulators who scratch backs with management and screw the licensed professionals who have the burden of getting everyone where they want to be on time safely. So what comes next? Instead of blaming regional pilots for taking the jobs, and instead of just b""""ing about all of the problems, what's it going to take? Customer awareness? Customer revolt? I might have a few ideas, but in any case it has to come from the customers. Big companies have a tendency not to listen to employees. Money talks.

 

Really there isn't much else to say.

Congratulations BlueMoon!

...on to something else....

 

As have said on another thread, a company is only as good as it's weakest link. In flying on some of DAL contract carriers, the level of service and performance leaves a lot to be desired. The customer still blames DELTA at the end of the day. I do not blame the regional pilot for this because much of this is out of his control. I blame DAL management for the relationships they establish with the regionals. SWA and AT do not have regionals therefore they do not have the problems tied to them that other mainline carriers do. Where is the motivation to do well when the regional guys are guranteed the bucks for the trip wheather the seats are full or not??? It seems as if there is a general attitude of not really giving a hoot about the operation and running a good operation. Not everyone concerned but a general kind of don't care attitude. Just my observation.

As for what the regional guys make -buck up and pound the pavement and get some more bucks.Many of alpa pilots have marched the picket lines for the mainline pay that we have today although it has been reversed somewhat with the recent spat of bankrupcy.

My take is that regionals were supposed to build markets and feed from smaller cities to the mainline hub. I think a good solution is to get back to this in that city size determine where the regional jets fly.

Everyone has paid his dues to get to where he is today. Everyone knows the game. If you don't like the starting pay, regional pay, or mainline pay find a new job. It is not the job it used to be. As i told a friend the other day "it's a sh--ty job now not a career."

So do RJs hurt main line??? Yes in the way the managements run them not because of the pilots.