This is the only viable solution to the goat screw currently in place. There is no good reason mainline can't operate BE1900 and up at reasonalble rates. Sure the rates won't be great but at least there is room to move up in a career path without starting over at the bottom of a list several times. Also experience can be more eaisily passed down to newer/younger pilots.

 

We don't need to debate that. But can you truthfully argue that their interview process at one time was NEVER a rather difficult process to get through? Regardless of whether or not their a "national/LCC' or a "major legacy", how much they get paid, or if many of the candidates trying to get hired there at one time were furloughed from legacy carriers. Again, it's all about supply and demand. There was a time at UAL where the acceptance rate was roughly 1 in 12 the first time around. If somebody was lucky enough to be called for a second interview, that number went to roughly 1 in 2 getting the nod. When they hired this most recent time, I'd hardly say that was the stats.

On more levels then one, true. I was simply debating that "getting hired with the direct line to a mainline job is a better will get a better candidate" line of reasoning simply isn't valid. I'm not talking about the goods/bads of how it's affected pilots on the way up/down, ONLY the quality of the candidate. And like I said, COEX/CAL is a perfect example.

 

Ego got in the way of that last time, and that was over a jet powered aircraft. What makes you think it would be any different this time?

Sadly, we pilots tend to have some short memories when it comes to repeating mistakes sometimes.

 

Talking about Jet Blue, Delta, AMR, UAUA et al and their mins is good, because they have changed as the candidates have changed.

15 years ago who would have had 1000 hrs PIC 121. Not many. Now it is just another notch. It by design keeps the guys moving off the top and the overall cost low.

Some majors do not care about that some do. It is another requirements, and RJ's have allowed it to be embraced by pilots. Why? because we have had to.

What needs to be looked at is the regional hiring practices. Regional carriers really do not want to hire 300 hr wonders, but given where this industry is at they are trying to mitigate risk to their bottom line. Ab Inito generally does that to some extent, but not to the level it needs to.
See what regionals and that whole side of the industry have introduced a pilot to airlines passengers much earlier in their careers. It has made a Major Airline hires have 7-15 years (a ton more experience) than they used to have.
It is a interesting dynamic. Due to the Deregulation and Hub and Spoke economics the bars have been raised for major airline pilots and lowered for regional airline pilots. It is taking 10-20 years to see a left seat at a major and two to three at a regional. The regionals are now stagnating and the experience is catching up with the growth. This is not across the board, but in general. It will reverse itself again as we near the great retirement era later this decade. In effect the airlines are going to once again need to lower their barrier for entry to staff their needs.

A fix is costly, it is costly to the airlines, pilots, and the regulators. Pay needs to go up to attract the right profile. That is not happening today and the qualified pool is getting smaller and smaller. The cost of tickets needs to go up. That will cause less travel, which may be a good thing.

The end problem is we are businesses that assumes safety is an given. It is not. Safety needs to start before a pilot candidate flies their first airplane. Attraction is the best form. Pilots would deal with a few years of horrible wages as they quickly moved on to majors and were well in to six figures in a few years. That is no longer the case. 15 years in to this industry and six figures is a just barely. For ppl that have the brains and ability there are better careers with better prospects.

So how do we do it?
First, this is not a regional pilot mistake or issue, this is not a mainline pilot mistake or issue. This is an industry wide issue that the regulators, airlines and unions have all played a part it. We are seeing cracks now. Colgan is a good example, but in less than 10 years we will see epic failure.

Raising the barrier to a regional job is a good first step, but it needs to be more than just a different certificate. It needs to be different and restructured primary flight training. It needs to edge away from less airplane time to more stick time, more situational training. Getting people from private to airline pilot in 12 months has got to stop. There is safety in time. Even a mandatory 12 month stint as a CFI would be a start.
We need to as pilots take on mentoring. I think our union should put tools in place to get pilots to go to the universities etc and talk to prospective pilots. We should look at having a board certification like doctors. It is one more step. That should go hand in hand with regional mentoring.
There is a ton of legal red tape in those suggestions, but the point is simple. It is not my fault or your fault. It is the fault of burning the candle at both ends in the sake of promotion and viability of the industry. We all need to look at where this is headed, and serve up a good cup of self serving survivorship. As they say a bad safety record is not good for business. It is not good for pilots, and it is not good for Joe Public. We need to return to self policing, mentoring and a logical and predictable flow to better paying jobs.

Lets worry about how when we finally quit pointing fingers and assigning blame. Lets just decide to take ownership of the issues and quit the finger pointing. Solve the problem.

 

You misunderstood the thrust of what I was saying.

Direct line, do not reset seniority.

Many ppl do not want those low paying "RJ" jobs at mainline. We would not do that. Blah blah blah.

You know what, IMHO getting those seats on the same seniority list and allowing people a direct line, not a flow, but a known that yep, I am a DAL pilot making X but I know that I am qualified to fly the 777A when my seniority allows because I am a Delta Pilot.

What doing this does, is allows the airlines to be uber stringent in their hiring. No flows, no getting the crap that has snuck through, but making a pilot stand on their head, shoot shark **** up their nose, crazy antics to make sure the pilot is their pilot. The entry level job would not being going to 300 hr 21 year old pilots. It would be going to pilots that had the abilities and experience that a mainline carrier would want.

I know many ppl do not like this notion, but by in large it allows the cookie to get bigger, the "prize" more attainable and will attract the "right stuff" to this industry. All of these pit falls that are in place do save money, and reset seniority. For a pilot they make it a distant maybe to go from RJ pilot to mainline pilot.

Make sense.

 

It shouldn't be a matter of EGO any more. It should be company culture, it's XYZ brand we own the airplanes and keep all flying in house. This would make quality of service much easier to manage and eleminate layers or redundant management at the multiple subcontractors currently in place. Unfortunately it would require both management and labor to work together with reasonable expectations on both sides. A BE1900 driver should be an entry level position with room to grow within a company.

It would also require management that actually wants to run an airline.

 

[QUOTE=reddog25;762559]It is ugly but it is a start to a solution.

 

True, but how big were the "regional" airlines 15 years ago? Not very compared to today. Take the biggest ones out there, XJT/ASA/SKW/RAH, paled in comparison to what they are today. Now, there are way more qualified candidates than in the past. But the question is, with the way this had evolved, not ALL are willing to apply for the legacy job.

True, like you said, it will reverse. But remember, there were guys that on the panel/FO seat at a legacy in the past for just as much time.

Again, agree. But just like we're talking about, market forces and supply/demand have driven this stuff in the past. They can regulate the crap entry requirements, but when a lot of factors start to catch up again, it'll create a problem.

Everything else I omitted I agree with.

I didn't misunderstand anything. The CAL FT wasn't a seniority reset, and that was my example was specific to. As well as the argument that it will guaranty that mainline job.

I know that, you know that. But tell that to the senior/widebody CA's that have succumb to that all to often affliction of "I've got mine, everything else is the junior guy's problem". Like I said, we pilots have short memories.

True, but in this climate, those managements are in the minority, and it won't change any time soon.

 

Those WB guys have every right to demand their career back. To them their career is pay and retirement. To me it is progression, pay, retirement.

It is the unions jobs to prioritize the order of the group, and the sad fact is most are happy to keep the scope line where it is. I think that on many levels they are correct. Pay needs to be restored. I feel for them too as my pay sux as well.

I want it all, but getting it is another story.

 

[QUOTE=acl65pilot;762597]It is the unions jobs to prioritize the order of the group, and the sad fact is most are happy to keep the scope line where it is./quote]

But sadly, it's not till recently that that sentiment has been realized. And yep, when the BK's were happening it was hard to hold on to. In the pre 9/11 "HJS" syndrome that affected some mainline carriers, the scope relaxation that occurred NEVER should have.

So do I, but in the relatively brief amount time you and I have been in this game, there's only been a short period where pilots "had it all" so to speak.