Delta Pilots Association
12-21-2011, 06:28 PM
#7101
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
I agree. The DALPA guys like to make the argument that we are represented solely by our MEC and that it cannot be influenced by ALPA National. Well, what about the advice and general legal work we get from ALPA National's attorneys? When those attorneys are responsible for providing legal work and advice to other pilot groups with competing interests to ours, can we really afford to rely on their advice? How's that working out for us so far?
Here's some interesting food for thought that I found along these lines:
Conflicts of interest related to the practice of law
In the legal profession, the duty of loyalty owed to a client prohibits an attorney (or a law firm) from representing any other party with interests adverse to those of a current client. The few exceptions to this rule require informed written consent from all affected clients. In some circumstances, a conflict of interest can never be waived by a client. In perhaps the most common example encountered by the general public, the same firm should not represent both parties in a divorce or child custody case.
A prohibited or undisclosed representation involving a conflict of interest can subject an attorney to disciplinary hearings, the denial or disgorgement of legal fees, or in some cases (such as the failure to make mandatory disclosure), criminal proceedings. In the United States, a law firm usually cannot represent a client if its interests conflict with those of another client, even if they have separate lawyers within the firm, unless (in some jurisdictions) the lawyer is segregated from the rest of the firm for the duration of the conflict. Law firms often employ software in conjunction with their case management and accounting systems in order to meet their duties to monitor their conflict of interest exposure and to assist in obtaining waivers.
Here's some interesting food for thought that I found along these lines:
Conflicts of interest related to the practice of law
In the legal profession, the duty of loyalty owed to a client prohibits an attorney (or a law firm) from representing any other party with interests adverse to those of a current client. The few exceptions to this rule require informed written consent from all affected clients. In some circumstances, a conflict of interest can never be waived by a client. In perhaps the most common example encountered by the general public, the same firm should not represent both parties in a divorce or child custody case.
A prohibited or undisclosed representation involving a conflict of interest can subject an attorney to disciplinary hearings, the denial or disgorgement of legal fees, or in some cases (such as the failure to make mandatory disclosure), criminal proceedings. In the United States, a law firm usually cannot represent a client if its interests conflict with those of another client, even if they have separate lawyers within the firm, unless (in some jurisdictions) the lawyer is segregated from the rest of the firm for the duration of the conflict. Law firms often employ software in conjunction with their case management and accounting systems in order to meet their duties to monitor their conflict of interest exposure and to assist in obtaining waivers.
The interesting part is that the Delta Pilots are the ONLY parties who are legally able to negotiate with Delta Air Lines. How that affects the ability of SkyWest Holdings, Trans States Holding, Pinnacle Holdings, etc.. to do business is not our problem.
The pilots under Trans States Holdings, SkyWest Holdings, Pinnacle Holdings can fight their management as to who operates their respective aircraft, but when it comes to Delta Air Lines they don't get to sit at across the table.
ONLY Delta Pilots negotiate scope with Delta Air Lines.
ONLY Pinnacle Pilots negotiate scope with Pinnacle Airlines.
Delta Pilots do not negotiate scope with Pinnacle Airlines.
Pinnacle Pilots do not negotiate scope with Delta Air Lines.
Put another way:
The Delta Pilots have an exclusive contract with Delta Air Lines to provide pilot labor.
The ASA PILOTS have an exclusive contract with ASA Corp. to provide pilot labor.
ASA Corp. has a contract with Delta Air Lines that allows ASA to conduct flying as "permitted" given the exceptions outlined in the Delta Air Lines Pilot Working Agreement.
The PILOTS of ASA do not have a contract, or any ability to contract with Delta Air Lines. The ASA Pilots cannot legally make an agreement with Delta Air Lines.
People tend to mix that up, just wanted to clarify. There isn't a conflict of interest because the pilots of a different carrier do not have the authority to sit at the table with a corporation that they do not have a labor agreement.
12-21-2011, 06:37 PM
#7102
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by shiznit
ALL of that is correct (as far as I know in my limited legal knoweldge, but I do have a friend who knows an attorney who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night).
The interesting part is that the Delta Pilots are the ONLY parties who are legally able to negotiate with Delta Air Lines. How that affects the ability of SkyWest Holdings, Trans States Holding, Pinnacle Holdings, etc.. to do business is not our problem.
The pilots under Trans States Holdings, SkyWest Holdings, Pinnacle Holdings can fight their management as to who operates their respective aircraft, but when it comes to Delta Air Lines they don't get to sit at across the table.
ONLY Delta Pilots negotiate scope with Delta Air Lines.
ONLY Pinnacle Pilots negotiate scope with Pinnacle Airlines.
Delta Pilots do not negotiate scope with Pinnacle Airlines.
Pinnacle Pilots do not negotiate scope with Delta Air Lines.
Put another way:
The Delta Pilots have an exclusive contract with Delta Air Lines to provide pilot labor.
The ASA PILOTS have an exclusive contract with ASA Corp. to provide pilot labor.
ASA Corp. has a contract with Delta Air Lines that allows ASA to conduct flying as "permitted" given the exceptions outlined in the Delta Air Lines Pilot Working Agreement.
The PILOTS of ASA do not have a contract, or any ability to contract with Delta Air Lines. The ASA Pilots cannot legally make an agreement with Delta Air Lines.
People tend to mix that up, just wanted to clarify. There isn't a conflict of interest because the pilots of a different carrier do not have the authority to sit at the table with a corporation that they do not have a labor agreement.
The interesting part is that the Delta Pilots are the ONLY parties who are legally able to negotiate with Delta Air Lines. How that affects the ability of SkyWest Holdings, Trans States Holding, Pinnacle Holdings, etc.. to do business is not our problem.
The pilots under Trans States Holdings, SkyWest Holdings, Pinnacle Holdings can fight their management as to who operates their respective aircraft, but when it comes to Delta Air Lines they don't get to sit at across the table.
ONLY Delta Pilots negotiate scope with Delta Air Lines.
ONLY Pinnacle Pilots negotiate scope with Pinnacle Airlines.
Delta Pilots do not negotiate scope with Pinnacle Airlines.
Pinnacle Pilots do not negotiate scope with Delta Air Lines.
Put another way:
The Delta Pilots have an exclusive contract with Delta Air Lines to provide pilot labor.
The ASA PILOTS have an exclusive contract with ASA Corp. to provide pilot labor.
ASA Corp. has a contract with Delta Air Lines that allows ASA to conduct flying as "permitted" given the exceptions outlined in the Delta Air Lines Pilot Working Agreement.
The PILOTS of ASA do not have a contract, or any ability to contract with Delta Air Lines. The ASA Pilots cannot legally make an agreement with Delta Air Lines.
People tend to mix that up, just wanted to clarify. There isn't a conflict of interest because the pilots of a different carrier do not have the authority to sit at the table with a corporation that they do not have a labor agreement.
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
I agree. The DALPA guys like to make the argument that we are represented solely by our MEC and that it cannot be influenced by ALPA National. Well, what about the advice and general legal work we get from ALPA National's attorneys? When those attorneys are responsible for providing legal work and advice to other pilot groups with competing interests to ours, can we really afford to rely on their advice? How's that working out for us so far?
12-21-2011, 06:41 PM
#7103
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by NERD
I am as disillusioned with Alpa over the years as anyone. BUT, with all their bloat in DC, all the perceived conflicts of interest, would we be any better without them?
With regard to what I've bolded above, this is the classic "battered wife" syndrome. I don't mean any disrespect here, but falling for this line of thinking happens to all the sexes. If you are happy with ALPA, then by all means you should stick with them. If you are unhappy with ALPA, then a change should be made regardless of the natural impulse to worry about the unknown and stick with what you hate.
Originally Posted by NERD
The same guys (or types of guys) will eventually be running any new union. How's APA looking? What about Ucrapa? Swapa? They got most of their gains before we all got sodomized. With the exception of scope, we would not have wanted their contract in the pre ch11 period. Remember, that they did not negotiate ****, they just piggybacked on better contracts and took a contract that put them below Dal, Ual, Nwa, Lcc etc.(All Alpa btw) that put them where they(and luv mgmt like)to be. Somewhere in the middle. Decent pay and workrules but not the best. That way they could still compete (undercutting us) but not be a training ground for other airlines. Again, I am sure I will get slammed by Carl and a few of the true believers of everything anti alpa.
Carl
12-21-2011, 06:44 PM
#7104
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by tsquare
So before you start pulling the scuttle plug on the ship, wouldn't it be worthwhile to at least see how the openings are going. While we might not see the actual openings.. we will have a good idea of how stiff it was by management's reaction. I really don't wanting them to telegraph their intentions at this point in time, it is still 3 months away from that time. As it gets closer, I expect the rhetoric flame to be turned up. Patience grasshopper... We are gonna get into this crap soon enough.
What is there to wait to see? They've already clearly telegraphed their intentions.
12-21-2011, 06:49 PM
#7105
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
In the case of SWAPA, I used to agree with you on that. But the more I've learned about what is actually in the SWAPA contract, the more I realize that they've enjoyed much higher pay and QOL than we ever knew. Their system was so different from ours, that making comparisons seemed difficult, so we just assumed SWAPA was far beneath us. I've learned that is not true.
Carl
Carl
12-21-2011, 06:51 PM
#7106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
You seem to have glossed over the first paragraph in my post:
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
I agree. The DALPA guys like to make the argument that we are represented solely by our MEC and that it cannot be influenced by ALPA National. Well, what about the advice and general legal work we get from ALPA National's attorneys? When those attorneys are responsible for providing legal work and advice to other pilot groups with competing interests to ours, can we really afford to rely on their advice? How's that working out for us so far?
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
I agree. The DALPA guys like to make the argument that we are represented solely by our MEC and that it cannot be influenced by ALPA National. Well, what about the advice and general legal work we get from ALPA National's attorneys? When those attorneys are responsible for providing legal work and advice to other pilot groups with competing interests to ours, can we really afford to rely on their advice? How's that working out for us so far?
How does the Delta Pilots' inability to discuss scope with Pinnacle, Inc. cause a conflict?
Also, didn't NW+DAL reduce the maximum number of large RJ's in the merger than the groups had independently? Why wasn't the JPWA rejected by ALPA National since it reduced the availability of outsourced flying?
12-21-2011, 06:52 PM
#7107
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Timbo
Ask the APA how long they've been waiting for a raise.
Originally Posted by Timbo
This is not the first time a group of dissatisfied pilots, post merger, have tried to start an in-house union at Delta, the last time it didn't go very far, but that was before Al Gore invented the internet...
Now ALPA has to compete on a much more level playing field with regard to the factual landscape. And with 4,100 pilots signed up through the efforts of word of mouth and a sparse website, that should tell you something.
Carl
12-21-2011, 06:56 PM
#7108
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by shiznit
Our "interests" don't "compete". We cannot hold negotiations with their management and they cannot hold negotiations with our management. The lawyers don't have to be concerned, because the pilot groups are mutually exclusive to each other.
How does the Delta Pilots' inability to discuss scope with Pinnacle, Inc. cause a conflict?
How does the Delta Pilots' inability to discuss scope with Pinnacle, Inc. cause a conflict?
12-21-2011, 06:59 PM
#7109
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Another great post.
NERD is right, ALPA National has its issues as any large organization does. That same organization can be fixed if pilot get off their duffs.
NERD is right, ALPA National has its issues as any large organization does. That same organization can be fixed if pilot get off their duffs.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
It has been before, and will be again. They are the only voice that anyone in DC listens to wrt to pilot issues. I do not mean invite in to the room, I mean listen to. Do not give me this CAPA garbage, they may get to show up, but when it comes to decision time, they call the ALPA guys because they know they are the subject matter expert.
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Do not believe me, call any pilot that works on Political Affairs and they will tell you.
Carl
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