MEH/F9/RAH/Lynx Proposals are now avail.
12-08-2010 | 05:53 PM
#501
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 411
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From: 767 CA
In effect, those FO's did "earn" the seniority through their time at airlines like Republic/Mesa/Air Wisconsin. I would counter your question with "how do you justify a junior F9 FO, with several thousand hours of experience, usually including hundreds or thousands of hours of PIC turbine time, being placed at the same seniority level as someone with a few hundred hours and hardly any turbine time at all?" As to the risk of furlough, a few hundred junior RAH FO's would have been furloughed without the acquisition of F9. Without RAH, F9 would have exited bankruptcy through other means (and I'm not talking Southwest).
Meanwhile what I'm saying means they get full protection in pay, upgrade, and equipment, and share equal risk of furlough. Sure they'll be junior on paper to some RAH FO's whose relative seniority was greater than theirs. What have they lost? Those FO's can't upgrade before them or displace them off the bus with a fence.
Your position is irrational and self-centered, as are all staple jobs.
12-08-2010 | 07:09 PM
#502
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 115
Likes: 1
How about they do a date of hire Master Seniority List, and then have a System Seniority List for anything that has Frontier painted on the airplane in branded service. If you choose to fly branded service then you bid into the bottom of the System at Frontier. If you you want to stay in FFD service, then stay where you are.
12-08-2010 | 08:16 PM
#503
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 411
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From: 767 CA
Seems similar to what I proposed, except you've now moved F9 regional flying over to F9 from RAH. But the end result is about the same. So long as we end up one list over time. I think that's the main point, to avoid giving the company the ability to leverage us against one another.
I just hope when this is all over, the pilots on both sides will unify and work together to secure an industry leading contract with solid pay, excellent work rules, and rock solid scope. I'm leaving soon, but I hope for the best for everyone who stays.
I just hope when this is all over, the pilots on both sides will unify and work together to secure an industry leading contract with solid pay, excellent work rules, and rock solid scope. I'm leaving soon, but I hope for the best for everyone who stays.
12-08-2010 | 08:34 PM
#504
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 79
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From: Clear Right 320
I would counter your question with "how do you justify a junior F9 FO, with several thousand hours of experience, usually including hundreds or thousands of hours of PIC turbine time, being placed at the same seniority level as someone with a few hundred hours and hardly any turbine time at all?"
12-08-2010 | 09:52 PM
#505
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 688
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How so? If no one at RAH gets a spot on a bus until every F9 FO has the opportunity to upgrade, where's the windfall? Their position on the bus is protected, and their seniority within the group is unchanged.
RAH pilots can't move up to the bus until all f9 guys have the opportunity, but don't get unfairly pushed to the bottom and subjected to undue risk of furlough and reduced bidding seniority. And everyone is on one list, stopping the management from whipping one side against the other, as they've proven they definitely WILL do in the absence of one list.
Any move by F9 guys to stop a unification of the lists is done at their own peril. I think most guys at RAH are fine with some sort of fence arrangement to protect the FO's positions on the bus. They're so insistent on a combined list because they know that without it, management will pull another Midwest move and the RAH pilots will be unjustly vilified even if it's the actions of the F9 pilots that enables the whole debacle.
How do you justify F9's most junior FO's going from being at the bottom of the list of a bankrupt company at risk of furlough, to the top of the list, senior to pilots with 20+ years at the company? Your only argument is career expectation of the equipment/pay from flying the bus, and that can be protected via a fence, without taking seniority from others that THEY didn't earn, to use your words.
It amazes me the guys on each side that think stapling people is justified on either side. Just ridiculous, selfish, shortsighted, me-first at the expense of the other guy BS.
If F9 guys get to keep their equipment, pay, and upgrade potential and RAH guys get to maintain their relative seniority and furlough protection, I see both sides getting a fair compromise.
RAH pilots can't move up to the bus until all f9 guys have the opportunity, but don't get unfairly pushed to the bottom and subjected to undue risk of furlough and reduced bidding seniority. And everyone is on one list, stopping the management from whipping one side against the other, as they've proven they definitely WILL do in the absence of one list.
Any move by F9 guys to stop a unification of the lists is done at their own peril. I think most guys at RAH are fine with some sort of fence arrangement to protect the FO's positions on the bus. They're so insistent on a combined list because they know that without it, management will pull another Midwest move and the RAH pilots will be unjustly vilified even if it's the actions of the F9 pilots that enables the whole debacle.
How do you justify F9's most junior FO's going from being at the bottom of the list of a bankrupt company at risk of furlough, to the top of the list, senior to pilots with 20+ years at the company? Your only argument is career expectation of the equipment/pay from flying the bus, and that can be protected via a fence, without taking seniority from others that THEY didn't earn, to use your words.
It amazes me the guys on each side that think stapling people is justified on either side. Just ridiculous, selfish, shortsighted, me-first at the expense of the other guy BS.
If F9 guys get to keep their equipment, pay, and upgrade potential and RAH guys get to maintain their relative seniority and furlough protection, I see both sides getting a fair compromise.
Maybe none of your assumptions are remotely accurate.
12-08-2010 | 11:38 PM
#506
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 411
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From: 767 CA
I didn't make any assumptions, just proposed what I thought would be fair and then defended it when attacked.
This in no way was presented as what the decision is, just what I thought would be fair. And I am surprised at the guys who say that anything other than stapling all of RAH under F9 would be unfair.
This in no way was presented as what the decision is, just what I thought would be fair. And I am surprised at the guys who say that anything other than stapling all of RAH under F9 would be unfair.
12-09-2010 | 05:28 AM
#507
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 123
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From: A318/319 pic
So your saying ten years at Frontier is equal to ten years at Republic. So taken to the extreme, If Delta bought Great Lakes, 10 years at Great Lakes would be the same as 10 years at Delta (by the way, I have nothing but the utmost respect for the pilots' of Great Lakes). Just trying to figure out if this is an absolute or if it is situational.
Make the relative seniority argument and it becomes even more outrageous. (ie- #1 B744=#1 B1900).
12-09-2010 | 05:53 AM
#508
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 339
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I would like you to clarify your statement-
So your saying ten years at Frontier is equal to ten years at Republic. So taken to the extreme, If Delta bought Great Lakes, 10 years at Great Lakes would be the same as 10 years at Delta...
Make the relative seniority argument and it becomes even more outrageous. (ie- #1 B744=#1 B1900).
So your saying ten years at Frontier is equal to ten years at Republic. So taken to the extreme, If Delta bought Great Lakes, 10 years at Great Lakes would be the same as 10 years at Delta...
Make the relative seniority argument and it becomes even more outrageous. (ie- #1 B744=#1 B1900).
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