Pay is ephemeral, seniority is forever. United was in the $240 per hour range for the 747 in late 2000 while SWA was something like $80 less per hour. Now SWA's top 737 captains make $16 more per hour than the 747 pilots at United. That doesn't mean that if an SLI had happened in 2000, the SWA guys should have or would have been placed below every UA captain, or that if it happened now, the SWA guys should be placed above every UA captain. Contracts change every few years, but equipment types last for decades, and is much better of a metric to use for an SLI.

 

I'll put it this way, I just looked at our arbitration award. It's 32 pages and the word pay showed up 3 times. Two times to acknowledge that one side wanted that taken into consideration and one time when they recited a clause in the ALPA merger policy. The did not mention increased pay in the analysis. In other words, they did not consider it.

I'm not saying that arbitrators won't consider it. But, I am saying that, I think you guys need to come up with a better argument, because the arbitrators won't create an entire seniority list based on the fact that one side got paid more than the other.

 

Bwi,

I don't want you to lose patience with me, but stick with me and tell me how those pilots who took the "extra" time to get on with SWA or who left Air Tran career expectations would be hurt by relative seniority. Career expectations can't be measured by, "I'm supposed to be senior to him." Their feelings might be hurt, but their career expectations would not. Pay and extra time to get to an airline don't matter to arbitrators.

More retirements at SWA? Ok. Now you are talking. How many more, percentage-wise? And could those increases have been offset by aircraft deliveries on the other side? That's a good area to explore.

Look, I'm really not picking sides, so please don't shoot the messenger. Say what you want about my pay, but to win a game you have to know where you are playing. In the arbitrators world, they don't really care about most of the arguments you guys are coming up with.

That reminds me, I have to change my avatar notes. We just got a raise and I'm only getting paid $9 an hour less now.

 

Great then my vote is to keep the Airtran guys who want to hold their seniority and seat, stay on their contract. All new growth goes toward the WN pilot group. AAI guys are welcome to come on over to the WN side at the bottom. Seems fair to me. I wonder how many pilots would jump over to the WN contract???

 

.
Like that is going to Happen.

Using your argument, what if MGT grows AAI and all future Hires get hired on the AAI list.
Cheaper labor costs from the separate contract and list.

Lets say this goes on for the next 3 years while all this gets ironed out in Arbitration...(could be longer if you use the USAir/AMwest model).

How would that work for the JR SWA Pilots?

Relax, I have No dog in your fight. Just be careful what you wish for.
A Joint SLI worked out by both SWA/AAI merger committees is in both sides best interest. My money is it will be settled in Arbitration.
Good luck to all.

 

That's never going to happen. Perhaps you should quit sniffing the Canyon Blue and accept reality.

Its going to be some kind of ratio deal, protecting the pre1993 SWA pilots and ratioing the rest. Sorry if that bursts your "staple the bastiges" bubble. Think of it as a lesson in losing your greed.

 

There are numerous pilots who left AAI (with several years of longevity) to start off at the bottom at SWA over the past ten years. That's because they desired a SWA pilot's career well more than maintaining their seniority at AAI. Those pilots will be directly affected if they're slotted below the pilots who were below them at AAI.

Other pilots at SWA made similar decisions to come to SWA over other places--myself included. I know I valued a job at SWA well more than a job at AAI (as well as two majors I was hired at) ten years ago and still do today. Hence, I'd be dismayed to see someone who took a job with AAI 10 years ago be slotted ahead of me on a combined list.

It's too bad that we can't go back a year and ask people what position they'd be willing to take on the opposite list. I'd guess SWA pilots would have required a huge jump in seniority to take a job at AAI (and any SWA CA and most senior FOs would've turned down the transfer for any jump). I'd also surmise that most AAI pilots would've been willing to take a big loss in seniority to transfer to the SWA list.

Alas, we can't do that now. Still, anyone who thinks that relative seniority is reasonable seems irrational to me. It comes off as someone who wants to keep their cake and get to eat it too.

 

I have no dog in this fight, but you most likely left your previous carriers due to the superior pay and benefits of SWA. You sacraficed your Seniority to make that leap of faith. Those that stayed behind valued Seniority over pay and benefits.

I am sorry, but my opinion is Seniority is everything in this industry, that is the very reason there should be a fair SLI. Pay will not be a huge factor in the arbitrators decision, and IMHO it should not be. Don't forget your history, there was a day when Southwest made very meager wages, compared to the Legacy carriers, some would even say they undercut the competition. But they worked hard over the years and reached a great pay rate. The same could be said for AAI in 20 years, how do your know their pay would not have been on par with SWA's. My point is PAY will not and should not be a huge factor in the arbitrators decision matrix, especially with similar Narrow-Body fleet types.

Just my opinion, I don't work for either carrier, but I do believe preservation of "Relative Seniority" is the number one factor in a fair integration. Good Luck to you all.

 

bwi,

Measuring your career expectations by how you compare to someone at another airline because of decisions you made will never work. This industry is filled with stories where people got screwed because of decisions they made. The arbitrator(s) can't account for individual situations to make things work out to be fair.

Without anything else on property besides 737's and 717's, if you are at 40% up the list at pre-SWA, life and your career expectations will probably be the same if you are 40% up the list when they are combined at post-SWA. That's all the arbitrators care about.

Look, I've been in your position. I've argued against relative seniority until my fingers were blue. Except, my argument was that at 40% I could move to this airplane-higher pay, and at 30% I could move to this bigger airplane-higher pay, and so on. The arbitrators were only moved to slightly alter the list because of higher retirements.

Your argument is, at 40% I can get this vacation and days off, at 30% I can get this vacation and days off. Give us an extra percent because Air Tran pilots will make a whole lot more money. It's just not going to fly.

Good luck though. Seriously, the best advice I can give you is not to take any of this personal. Just hang on for the ride.

New K Now

 

I said all new growth on the WN side, I know that won't happen, the days of the transtar/morris purchase are just a dream. I just wish I could get a huge pay raise and still hold my current seniority like the AAI guys want. I just get to keep my seniority, my current pay, delay my upgrade even more, and fly to ATL and some other hot spots, that I could care less about flying to. While some guys who didn't have to buy a type, didn't have to wait out at a regional to get over 1000 hours pic, and didn't have to interview move ahead of me. I guess I'm just jealous. Because with out Airtran, SWA would have never been able to grow or fly out of Texas.