The AirTran Pilots' Windfall and SLI
01-11-2011, 10:51 AM
#252
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by maddogmax
I hate to say it but this SLI has the potential to become another AWA/USAIR debacle. That would be tragic.
01-11-2011, 10:59 AM
#253
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by shoelu
I very much doubt that. The problem with the AWA/USAIR debacle stems from the fact that someone on the US Air side did not comprehend the word "binding". Both sides agreed to binding arbitration and one side decided they did not like the ruling so they were not going to abide by it. I believe that both sides in this case will indeed respect an arbitrator's decision when it comes to that. However that is simply my humble opinion.
Agreed... if anything it looks more like Northwest/ Republic in the making. However they may turn out to be big boys and roll with it. We'll see.
01-11-2011, 11:11 AM
#254
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by FAULTPUSH
Like I said, windfalls are not a problem unless they come at the expense of the other group. In a pure percentage merger, a 10% AAI captain and a 10% SWA both keep their same relative seniority, so where is the windfall for the AAI guy?
If you paste the senior AAI guy behind however many SWA guys, they gain lots of relative seniority at the expense of the AAI guy - he no longer gets his 1st choice of line, vacation, domicile, etc. That's windfall for the SWA guys at the expense of the AAI guys.
If you paste the senior AAI guy behind however many SWA guys, they gain lots of relative seniority at the expense of the AAI guy - he no longer gets his 1st choice of line, vacation, domicile, etc. That's windfall for the SWA guys at the expense of the AAI guys.
01-11-2011, 11:13 AM
#255
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by cole
Maybe the windfall for the aai guy who just got a 13 year relative bump in seniority, a huge increase in qol, and a 100k plus increase in pay is at the expense of the SWA pilots who have been at SWA longer than the aai pilot Aai pilot at airtran. Maybe???? Seems like a windfall to me.
What do you mean by a 13 year relative bump in seniority?
Seniority is NOT longevity. Do not confuse the two...
01-11-2011, 11:46 AM
#257
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 879
Originally Posted by cole
Maybe the windfall for the aai guy who just got a 13 year relative bump in seniority, a huge increase in qol, and a 100k plus increase in pay is at the expense of the SWA pilots who have been at SWA longer than the aai pilot Aai pilot at airtran. Maybe???? Seems like a windfall to me.
Here's another way to make the point: How is a SWA pilot negatively impacted by being in the same relative seniority after the integration?
01-11-2011, 12:33 PM
#258
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by FAULTPUSH
Let me say it for the third time: windfalls are only an issue if they come at the exense of the other group. Increase in QOL and pay is a windfall, but it doesn't cost the SWA guys anything. There is no "13 year" increase in seniority for the AAI guy. That DOH is a number that has no meaning except in the context of your peer group - as 80ktsclamp said, that's longevity, not seniority. For a SWA pilot, that 13 years puts you at the top of the SWA list. For the AAI guy, you don't need it to be at the top of their list.
Here's another way to make the point: How is a SWA pilot negatively impacted by being in the same relative seniority after the integration?
Here's another way to make the point: How is a SWA pilot negatively impacted by being in the same relative seniority after the integration?
Bingo. The fact that the merger will mainly produce an airline that has one or two types of aircraft types with basically the same pay makes a relative position SLI more probable. The career expectations are the same. Right? Anything else, you are arguing that the arbitrator should take into account fairness based on when you get to take vacation, bid schedules, ect. Typically, I don't think these are things they care about.
Are you going to be in the same position, seat-and aircraft wise, you were in before? If so, that's fine with them. Career expectation-wise, where are you going to go that's different? A 737 is a 737.
01-11-2011, 01:06 PM
#259
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by newKnow
Bingo. The fact that the merger will mainly produce an airline that has one or two types of aircraft types with basically the same pay makes a relative position SLI more probable. The career expectations are the same. Right? Anything else, you are arguing that the arbitrator should take into account fairness based on when you get to take vacation, bid schedules, ect. Typically, I don't think these are things they care about.
Are you going to be in the same position, seat-and aircraft wise, you were in before? If so, that's fine with them. Career expectation-wise, where are you going to go that's different? A 737 is a 737.
Are you going to be in the same position, seat-and aircraft wise, you were in before? If so, that's fine with them. Career expectation-wise, where are you going to go that's different? A 737 is a 737.
"This Arbitrator agrees that the "reasonable" career expectations of the two pilot groups is the benchmark for determining what is fair and equitable in this case."
"On this basis alone, the integration of Shuttle America Pilots into the Chautauqua operation has substantially increased career expectation for the Shuttle America Pilots, far beyond what they could have reasonably expected when they "signed on" as pilots for Shuttle America."
01-11-2011, 01:49 PM
#260
The NeverEnding Story
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 7,514
Originally Posted by shoelu
Respectfully, that sure does not sound like it agrees with the arbitrators decision in the Chautauqua-Shuttle America decision as listed in the beginning of this thread. These are his words concerning career expectations:
"This Arbitrator agrees that the "reasonable" career expectations of the two pilot groups is the benchmark for determining what is fair and equitable in this case."
"On this basis alone, the integration of Shuttle America Pilots into the Chautauqua operation has substantially increased career expectation for the Shuttle America Pilots, far beyond what they could have reasonably expected when they "signed on" as pilots for Shuttle America."
"This Arbitrator agrees that the "reasonable" career expectations of the two pilot groups is the benchmark for determining what is fair and equitable in this case."
"On this basis alone, the integration of Shuttle America Pilots into the Chautauqua operation has substantially increased career expectation for the Shuttle America Pilots, far beyond what they could have reasonably expected when they "signed on" as pilots for Shuttle America."
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