View Poll Results: Minimum Acceptable Contractual Pay Raises
<5% day 1, 15% life of contract
4
3.33%
>5%<10% day 1, 15%
2
1.67%
>5%<10% day 1 20%
1
0.83%
>5%<10% day 1 25%
4
3.33%
>10%<20% day 1 25%
17
14.17%
>10%<20% day 1 30%
17
14.17%
>10%<20% day 1 35%
10
8.33%
>10%<20% day 1 40%
65
54.17%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll
DAL Contract Survey
02-23-2011, 09:15 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Just as a thought. We REALLY need to all think strongly about a 6hr min day, 1 for 1.75 duty day, 1 for 1.5 duty night, and 1 for 3 trip rigs with the new rest rules coming out that could kill productivity and make all of us end up flying one extra day for the same pay if changes aren't made......
02-23-2011, 09:52 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Shiz
Your point is well taken on the value of work rules. Those all have to be valued in the mix. I thought the DAL MEC did not historically cost work rules, al least when giving them away in Ch11
of course they are a lot more expensive to buy back.
Your point is well taken on the value of work rules. Those all have to be valued in the mix. I thought the DAL MEC did not historically cost work rules, al least when giving them away in Ch11
of course they are a lot more expensive to buy back.
02-23-2011, 10:09 AM
#14
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
We do need a jump in pay the first day of a new contract, to bring our 737s to SWA's rates at least. But, we can also gain from work rule gains, min day pay, upping the min hours for vacation and training, etc. Maybe bring back allnight pay, holiday pay, bring up per diem, etc. And, we can't forget scope from RJs or code share partners. Everything has to be looked at, but we all know we do need a fairly large increase day 1 in pay, period.
02-23-2011, 10:39 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by shiznit
This can't have any semblance of validity no matter what. Too many variables that go beyond this. What if you have a 6hr min day like FDX(which is a 12.5% increase over the 5:15, but only effective some of the time, call it 7% real increase), then you tack on a full 6hrs for every training event (2.5% yearly increase to income), 6hs/day for each week of vacation (an average yearly income increase of approx. 4.2%), an extra week of vacation per pilot (average yearly income increase of 4.5%), a 75 min. guar. (an increase of approx. 5%). Up the DC to 18% (increase of 4%).
This adds up to an average increase of 27% PER PILOT without any rate increases or any other types of workrule enhancements.
Payrates are notoriously deceiving is all I'm saying.
(This in no way defines my personal "minumums", just point out all the other ways to increase income without payrates alone.)
This adds up to an average increase of 27% PER PILOT without any rate increases or any other types of workrule enhancements.
Payrates are notoriously deceiving is all I'm saying.
(This in no way defines my personal "minumums", just point out all the other ways to increase income without payrates alone.)
Many people see payrates as the key to defining a good contract, and workrules and benefits as tools to fine-tune the value of the compensation. It's actually the other way around: if you want to have a great impact in the next contract, you retain or capture the flying, you get work-rules that make your day at the office worth your while, you get a solid retirement contribution to be made tax-deferred, then you set the mutliplier to yield the highest amount of total compensation you can negotiate with the company.
If we get a good contract, it''ll be more aparent from a careful read of of Sections 1 and 23, than a cursory glance at Section 3. Show me a huge headline increase (whether you call it "restoration" or something else), and'll show you:
12,000 pilots X 60% "yes" = 7,200 candidates for buyer's remorse.
02-23-2011, 11:01 AM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Bebe Bus De L'Air Assistant Aerial Conveyance Facilitator
Posts: 351
That's the problem a lot of pilots have. They focus so much on the hourly dollar figure that they don't think about the work rules.
I've always said: It's not what I get paid. It's how I get paid.
Fortunately, most of the guys I've flown with here understand that. At the regionals, not so much.
I've always said: It's not what I get paid. It's how I get paid.
Fortunately, most of the guys I've flown with here understand that. At the regionals, not so much.
02-23-2011, 11:25 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Scope recapture.
A percentage of the REVENUE of any new JV.
Scope recapture.
Pay starts at sign in and ends at end of duty.
DC to limit.
Scope recapture.
Maybe then we can talk about a raise in rates.
A percentage of the REVENUE of any new JV.
Scope recapture.
Pay starts at sign in and ends at end of duty.
DC to limit.
Scope recapture.
Maybe then we can talk about a raise in rates.
02-23-2011, 11:36 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Position: Boardroom Chair
Posts: 126
Most regional & non union contracts are better than Delta's, which makes the expectations of new hires kind of out of sync with the expectations of Delta and ALPA.
We need at least industry standard:
Full duty credit for deadhead days
75 hour min reserve
Crew meals on 11 hour days where max turn time is 38 minutes
No more extending reserves with 24 hour break away from base (went more than 20 days flying every day once)
Defined financial penalties for non compliance with contract
Require all new, revised, or renewed contracts for outsourced flying to be staffed by Delta pilots
No selling of more than 25% of seats on partner (we need to attack the Alaska carve out)
We need at least industry standard:
Full duty credit for deadhead days
75 hour min reserve
Crew meals on 11 hour days where max turn time is 38 minutes
No more extending reserves with 24 hour break away from base (went more than 20 days flying every day once)
Defined financial penalties for non compliance with contract
Require all new, revised, or renewed contracts for outsourced flying to be staffed by Delta pilots
No selling of more than 25% of seats on partner (we need to attack the Alaska carve out)
02-23-2011, 12:39 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
I like the arguments about work rules because it requires an accurate costing of there value to determine the percentage improvement of a contract and we have the same data for when/if the Co. comes to us with their hand out. I would expect the MEC to present these values as part of any future TA.
Without the costing of those work rules the only thing you have to go on is pay rates, hence the survey. Work rules must be quantifiable in what they yield. To wit one will usually net more with an upgrade to the left seat over an incremental pay raise. Yet do the work rules allow for perhaps a more efficient schedule that allows you to make more for your day at the office but requires less staffing delaying upgrades? We need the whole picture, not just the one either the MEC and/or the Co. want to paint for us.
I find it very interesting that some here are saying, the above notwithstanding, that pay is not that important. I hope you don't have anything to do with the union. Next you'll be defending the Co. can only afford to pay XY or Z.
Without the costing of those work rules the only thing you have to go on is pay rates, hence the survey. Work rules must be quantifiable in what they yield. To wit one will usually net more with an upgrade to the left seat over an incremental pay raise. Yet do the work rules allow for perhaps a more efficient schedule that allows you to make more for your day at the office but requires less staffing delaying upgrades? We need the whole picture, not just the one either the MEC and/or the Co. want to paint for us.
I find it very interesting that some here are saying, the above notwithstanding, that pay is not that important. I hope you don't have anything to do with the union. Next you'll be defending the Co. can only afford to pay XY or Z.
Last edited by TANSTAAFL; 02-23-2011 at 01:35 PM.
02-23-2011, 01:46 PM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
I find it very interesting that some here are saying, the above notwithstanding, that pay is not that important. I hope you don't have anything to do with the union. Next you'll be defending the Co. can only afford to pay XY or Z.
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