View Poll Results: Minimum Acceptable Contractual Pay Raises
<5% day 1, 15% life of contract
4
3.33%
>5%<10% day 1, 15%
2
1.67%
>5%<10% day 1 20%
1
0.83%
>5%<10% day 1 25%
4
3.33%
>10%<20% day 1 25%
17
14.17%
>10%<20% day 1 30%
17
14.17%
>10%<20% day 1 35%
10
8.33%
>10%<20% day 1 40%
65
54.17%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll
DAL Contract Survey
02-24-2011, 10:03 AM
#41
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
FtB; Funny how you and I have said this before. 
BTW, what DAL gives other employee groups is not our issue. It may effect us, but we do not negotiate for them. That thinking is part of the reason, and rather smartly many other groups prefer not to have representation. They get what we get and do not do much for it. It has been DAL's mantra and it works well for them. They take the other employee group costs in to account with giving us/our union a deal. It should not be something we deal with at the table.
I also highly doubt that DAL will give other groups 40%.
That aside, you numbers that correct. Using 2010 data, each percentage increase in pay, with no work rule changes is equal to about 18 million dollars. That is for day one of a new agreement, and goes up from there at the DOS+ bumps.
BTW, what DAL gives other employee groups is not our issue. It may effect us, but we do not negotiate for them. That thinking is part of the reason, and rather smartly many other groups prefer not to have representation. They get what we get and do not do much for it. It has been DAL's mantra and it works well for them. They take the other employee group costs in to account with giving us/our union a deal. It should not be something we deal with at the table.
I also highly doubt that DAL will give other groups 40%.
That aside, you numbers that correct. Using 2010 data, each percentage increase in pay, with no work rule changes is equal to about 18 million dollars. That is for day one of a new agreement, and goes up from there at the DOS+ bumps.
02-24-2011, 06:28 PM
#42
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by gloopy
Yep. That Bolshevik "me too" nonsense is completely irrelevant. Why don't we "me too" the percentage cuts including the percentage in retirement benefit reductions, adjust it all for inflation and apply that to the other groups? If we did that would all the class envy groups suddenly be wowed by that exact same logic they latch onto that would then prove they are insanely overpaid and need a massive paycut to achieve the "pilot parity" that so many want but have no clue as to what it means?
Whatever raise we get day one, it will be equal to or less than the cuts previously imposed adjusted for inflation (and probably not adjusted for inflation as well) especially when you include all the other things besides payrates that have been cut. So if we get a XX% "raise" on day one, just tell the Bolsheviks that we recieved a XX% restoration to apply towards our previous cuts but are still below the pre cut levels.
They can then compare the other group's pre cut levels to their current levels and I think it would be easy to prove that even after our "big raise" we are still farther below our pre BK past than any other group because pilots took the deepest cuts, by far, than anyone. A 50% cut requires a 100% increase to restore, PLUS the compounded inflationary headwind (and inflation DOES include food, fuel/energy...if it doesn't, try paying previously lower prices at the pump/grocery store today and see how fast you get laughed at and then arrested for theft if you don't immediately fix it).
So we can do the "me too" dance all night long. But its going to be danced under the disco ball of context on the dancefloor of perspective. No matter how large a "raise" we will get, it will be less of a perentage towards our restoration than any other group. We should have zero tolerance for such insane, illogical and unfair attempts to manage our expectations and to any extent that such intellectual bafoonery is directed at us (agressively or passively, directly or indirectly) it needs to immediately bouce back hard with the truth.
Whatever raise we get day one, it will be equal to or less than the cuts previously imposed adjusted for inflation (and probably not adjusted for inflation as well) especially when you include all the other things besides payrates that have been cut. So if we get a XX% "raise" on day one, just tell the Bolsheviks that we recieved a XX% restoration to apply towards our previous cuts but are still below the pre cut levels.
They can then compare the other group's pre cut levels to their current levels and I think it would be easy to prove that even after our "big raise" we are still farther below our pre BK past than any other group because pilots took the deepest cuts, by far, than anyone. A 50% cut requires a 100% increase to restore, PLUS the compounded inflationary headwind (and inflation DOES include food, fuel/energy...if it doesn't, try paying previously lower prices at the pump/grocery store today and see how fast you get laughed at and then arrested for theft if you don't immediately fix it).
So we can do the "me too" dance all night long. But its going to be danced under the disco ball of context on the dancefloor of perspective. No matter how large a "raise" we will get, it will be less of a perentage towards our restoration than any other group. We should have zero tolerance for such insane, illogical and unfair attempts to manage our expectations and to any extent that such intellectual bafoonery is directed at us (agressively or passively, directly or indirectly) it needs to immediately bouce back hard with the truth.
Carl
02-24-2011, 07:30 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: M88B
Posts: 1,179
I would be willing to accept the 10% with 15-20% with some rule and of course scope improvements. PLEASE everyone realize this time around that we would be better to Hold or reduce scope than go for the sky's with pay rates. Dont ask why all these regional jets are taking your flying if you are going to give it to them on a silver platter!
If we can get these and still pull higher rates then by all means thats in the discussion. Just dont give up the important stuff.
If we can get these and still pull higher rates then by all means thats in the discussion. Just dont give up the important stuff.
02-25-2011, 01:28 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Originally Posted by XtremeF150
I would be willing to accept the 10% with 15-20% with some rule and of course scope improvements. PLEASE everyone realize this time around that we would be better to Hold or reduce scope than go for the sky's with pay rates. Dont ask why all these regional jets are taking your flying if you are going to give it to them on a silver platter!
If we can get these and still pull higher rates then by all means thats in the discussion. Just dont give up the important stuff.
If we can get these and still pull higher rates then by all means thats in the discussion. Just dont give up the important stuff.
It has gotten lost in the hyperbole, however I prefaced the original post with assumed no degradation in either Scope or work rules. Either of those is a complete non-starter
, and will repeat expect improvement in those as well.
02-26-2011, 07:30 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Still in one
Posts: 784
Originally Posted by dragon
Anybody get the council 1 update from the MEC meeting? I thought the blurb about their meeting with RA was interesting.
02-26-2011, 07:39 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,594
Sorry, should have posted this the first time:
Meeting with Senior Executives
Delta’s CEO, Richard Anderson, and VP Labor Relations, Mike Campbell, met with the MEC in closed session. While we cannot divulge the content of that meeting, we can say that Richard seemed more reserved and serious than in previous meetings (the DTW reps described it as having on his “game face”).
Meeting with Senior Executives
Delta’s CEO, Richard Anderson, and VP Labor Relations, Mike Campbell, met with the MEC in closed session. While we cannot divulge the content of that meeting, we can say that Richard seemed more reserved and serious than in previous meetings (the DTW reps described it as having on his “game face”).
02-26-2011, 07:39 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Having never gone through a contract negotiation, how does the polling get done? Do they send out a paper survey to everyone or just a representative sample? How are the issues or choices presented? Are you limited to what they select or do you write your own priorities?
02-26-2011, 09:11 AM
#50
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by Sink r8
And steal DAL M88 Driver's thunder? You're heartless.
Originally Posted by gloopy
Yep. That Bolshevik "me too" nonsense is completely irrelevant. Why don't we "me too" the percentage cuts including the percentage in retirement benefit reductions, adjust it all for inflation and apply that to the other groups? If we did that would all the class envy groups suddenly be wowed by that exact same logic they latch onto that would then prove they are insanely overpaid and need a massive paycut to achieve the "pilot parity" that so many want but have no clue as to what it means?
Whatever raise we get day one, it will be equal to or less than the cuts previously imposed adjusted for inflation (and probably not adjusted for inflation as well) especially when you include all the other things besides payrates that have been cut. So if we get a XX% "raise" on day one, just tell the Bolsheviks that we recieved a XX% restoration to apply towards our previous cuts but are still below the pre cut levels.
They can then compare the other group's pre cut levels to their current levels and I think it would be easy to prove that even after our "big raise" we are still farther below our pre BK past than any other group because pilots took the deepest cuts, by far, than anyone. A 50% cut requires a 100% increase to restore, PLUS the compounded inflationary headwind (and inflation DOES include food, fuel/energy...if it doesn't, try paying previously lower prices at the pump/grocery store today and see how fast you get laughed at and then arrested for theft if you don't immediately fix it).
So we can do the "me too" dance all night long. But its going to be danced under the disco ball of context on the dancefloor of perspective. No matter how large a "raise" we will get, it will be less of a perentage towards our restoration than any other group. We should have zero tolerance for such insane, illogical and unfair attempts to manage our expectations and to any extent that such intellectual bafoonery is directed at us (agressively or passively, directly or indirectly) it needs to immediately bouce back hard with the truth.
Whatever raise we get day one, it will be equal to or less than the cuts previously imposed adjusted for inflation (and probably not adjusted for inflation as well) especially when you include all the other things besides payrates that have been cut. So if we get a XX% "raise" on day one, just tell the Bolsheviks that we recieved a XX% restoration to apply towards our previous cuts but are still below the pre cut levels.
They can then compare the other group's pre cut levels to their current levels and I think it would be easy to prove that even after our "big raise" we are still farther below our pre BK past than any other group because pilots took the deepest cuts, by far, than anyone. A 50% cut requires a 100% increase to restore, PLUS the compounded inflationary headwind (and inflation DOES include food, fuel/energy...if it doesn't, try paying previously lower prices at the pump/grocery store today and see how fast you get laughed at and then arrested for theft if you don't immediately fix it).
So we can do the "me too" dance all night long. But its going to be danced under the disco ball of context on the dancefloor of perspective. No matter how large a "raise" we will get, it will be less of a perentage towards our restoration than any other group. We should have zero tolerance for such insane, illogical and unfair attempts to manage our expectations and to any extent that such intellectual bafoonery is directed at us (agressively or passively, directly or indirectly) it needs to immediately bouce back hard with the truth.
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