Frontier/Republic for Idiots... What am I mis
06-20-2011 | 07:37 AM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 532
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From: B-73N FO
Wow. Really. So:
2010 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2009 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2008 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2007 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2006 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2005 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2004 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2003 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2002 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2001 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2000 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1999 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1998 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1997 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1996 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
That would equal about 300% over the last 15 years. You guys did that?
Carl
2010 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2009 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2008 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2007 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2006 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2005 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2004 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2003 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2002 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2001 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
2000 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1999 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1998 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1997 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
1996 = 15% increased salary for Frontier pilots
That would equal about 300% over the last 15 years. You guys did that?
Carl
um..Carl....maybe they didn't teach math back when you were in school....the above 15% per year for 15 years is not 300%...it is in fact 813.7%....ever hear of compounding interest? I'm not a huge fan of a lot of what the FAPA side has done (RAH guy myself), but every post you have made on this board has been inflamatory and unnecessary. Go back and fly your 747 (I still don't buy that one) and leave this to the people involved. You are about as useless on here as Dirty Rat spouting his crap.
06-20-2011 | 10:50 AM
#142
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,097
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I would personally like to thank the F9 pilots for subsidizing my raise that is long over due!! Maybe we can finally get negotiations moving along now that BB knows where the money will be coming from! Now, that's brotherhood!!
We are 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We are 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
06-20-2011 | 11:02 AM
#143
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Joined: May 2008
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Oh! Carl! I thought of another one! 10yr Southwest captains make about $207 per hour, while Delta 767/A330 captains make only $202. Thus, they are sell-outs, worthy of contempt.
(the preceding comment in no way reflects my true feelings towards the fine pilots at Delta - only Carl).
(the preceding comment in no way reflects my true feelings towards the fine pilots at Delta - only Carl).
06-20-2011 | 11:07 AM
#144
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
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From: right for a long, long time
Oh! Carl! I thought of another one! 10yr Southwest captains make about $207 per hour, while Delta 767/A330 captains make only $202. Thus, they are sell-outs, worthy of contempt.
(the preceding comment in no way reflects my true feelings towards the fine pilots at Delta - only Carl).
(the preceding comment in no way reflects my true feelings towards the fine pilots at Delta - only Carl).
Try it! You'll like it!
06-20-2011 | 11:21 AM
#145
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 432
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So, we have determined that YOU took CONCESSIONS (not a pay freeze) in 1993 as part of NWA's voluntary restructuring to avoid bankruptcy.
My question is now this. How many times have you or your Delta brothers accepted a PAY OR BENEFITS INCREASE in exchange for SCOPE RELIEF?
In the mid to late nineties, Pinnacle (then Express Airlines) was flying approximately 35 turboprops as a NWA regional. They now fly 140 regional jets (16 of which are 900's). Mesaba now flys 60 jets (over 40 of which are 900's). Compass flys 36 E-175 regional jets. Those jets are mostly flying routes that YOU used to fly in a DC-9.
If you feel the need to preach to someone about what is wrong with the airline pilot profession, you need not find a computer and log onto APC. You need only to find a podium and a MIRROR.
06-20-2011 | 11:59 AM
#146
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From: 747-400 Captain
um..Carl....maybe they didn't teach math back when you were in school....the above 15% per year for 15 years is not 300%...it is in fact 813.7%....ever hear of compounding interest? I'm not a huge fan of a lot of what the FAPA side has done (RAH guy myself), but every post you have made on this board has been inflamatory and unnecessary. Go back and fly your 747 (I still don't buy that one) and leave this to the people involved. You are about as useless on here as Dirty Rat spouting his crap.
NWA: After at least 15 years of continuous increases in all facets of our contract, a leveraged buyout took NWA from having a no-debt balance sheet to a near bankrupt airline by 1993. Management came to us asking for concessions during a weak revenue evironment. We told them to go pound sand. They threatened bankruptcy, we told them to go ahead. Then our national union advised us that since a BK judge could take away a lot more than the 10% that management was asking for, it would be less damaging to the profession to accept this. Especially given the fact employees would end up with 37.5% of the company and have 3 seats on the board. NWA pilots agreed. Fast forward to 1998 when airline revenue environment was strong and NWA management came to us wanting concessions. Management wouldn't budge, so NWA pilots struck the airline and shut it down. Not one pilot crossed the picket line. Not one out of 5,500. This despite the fact that we were being told that we are destroying our meal ticket and not to fall on our sword for ALPA and all the other carriers. Management backed down after 2 weeks and we got our increases. The CEO went off to run Burger King.
Frontier: After 15 years of (unknown) pay increases, Frontier goes BK in 2009 during the strongest revenue environment since 9-11 and takes the typical hits. Frontier is auctioned and bought by RAH out of bankruptcy. During the strongest revenue environment since 9-11, Frontier pilots agree to additional concessions.
To compare NWA pilots in 1993 to Frontier pilots today is necessary by those who have to excuse their behavior by any means necessary. The fact is that Frontier pilots are acting totally in their own self interests. And in doing so, are undercutting and demeaning the profession further. If your company is not making it during the strongest revenue environment since 9-11, it's obvious what will happen if there are negative changes to revenue in our immediate future. Your acceptance of anything to save a failed management team executing a failed business plan hurts us all. But it's history now.
Carl
06-20-2011 | 12:06 PM
#147
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From: 747-400 Captain
C.S.
Did you ever read Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations"?
The insights offered there might encourage one to strive for a system (both economic and societal) that works alongside with reasonably anticipated human behavior. (especially behavior that involves their own financial security). There are very few of us who are saints, let alone martyrs. (As an extreme example, I have no intention of committing suicide when I turn 65 so that S.Sec. and Medicare will have more funds available for you when you turn 65. While this example is over-the-top, it is along the same conceptual line that you advocate for the Frontier pilots, or for any pilot who accepts a job with a FFD regional.)
If we wish to have a certain behavior, then an environment must exist that makes the behavior rational.
Did you ever read Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations"?
The insights offered there might encourage one to strive for a system (both economic and societal) that works alongside with reasonably anticipated human behavior. (especially behavior that involves their own financial security). There are very few of us who are saints, let alone martyrs. (As an extreme example, I have no intention of committing suicide when I turn 65 so that S.Sec. and Medicare will have more funds available for you when you turn 65. While this example is over-the-top, it is along the same conceptual line that you advocate for the Frontier pilots, or for any pilot who accepts a job with a FFD regional.)
If we wish to have a certain behavior, then an environment must exist that makes the behavior rational.
as someone worthy for a union member to read. I get that.Believe what you wish and handle your life how you wish. Just don't expect sympathy from other airline pilots when your totally self-interested attempts at excusing a failed management team...well, fail.
Carl
06-20-2011 | 12:12 PM
#148
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From: 747-400 Captain
Well Carl, you'll be wasting your time looking for decreases aside from the temporary BK cuts and the year 1 rate which went from $52 down to whatever it is now. I also believe that Frontier pilots took another TEMPORARY cut just after 9/11 in order to avoid furloughs. That about covers the history of pay decreases at Frontier as far as I know.
Let's look at improvements. As has been covered before, once upon a time Frontier paid a salary that would barely make a RAHbro satisfied. Today, there is not a pilot here who isn't benefiting from the efforts FAPA put forth on our behalf. Airbus rates are certainly not industry leading, but also not bottom of the barrel. Since my arrival in 2006, I have seen FAPA negotiate away a relatively worthless ESOP program in exchange for a DC plan in which the company is contributing an additional 6% of my income. Today, I continue to track (as a lazy FO) with overall income and benefits exceeding what I would be making as an 11 year RJ CA at my previous employer. All with work rules allowing me to weasel my way out of ever working a Christmas holiday, averaging 16-17 days off each month, and turning 1 week blocks of vacation into 17-19 day stretches away from work. Each year my pay goes up. Snapbacks have recovered nearly all of the BK concessions. The pay scale continues to shift based on cost of living adjustments negotiated by FAPA.
All while working for a carrier getting pummeled by competition, mismanagement, fuel, BK, etc. I rarely go to sleep with the comfort of knowing I'll have a job in the morning. But, for the past 6 years I have enjoyed combined QOL and pay that a number of my 13+ year UAL (narrowbody) friends tell me they wish they enjoyed (vs. their 90+ hour months with 12 days off). Personally, I don't focus on the hourly numerical figure on my pay stub. If I did I would notice that I make $10-$15 per hour less than my friends at JetBlue and Airtran. But I would also see that I make more than the comparable 6 year rates at Virgin, Spirit, Allegiant, not to mention USAir and (almost) United (granted to CAL rates are better so that may change). I could be commuting to Newark for $119/hr. or LAX for $109/hr., and my paycheck would look a lot better. And, honestly, if I could do it all over again, I just might wish that was the case. But, I also take much more into account like time at home, living in domicile (somewhere I like living), etc. I enjoy my life at Frontier unlike many of my friends at UAL, etc., some of which (after 13 years) have taken military leaves with very little intention of returning.
It's nice that you guys have the luxury of subsidizing your domestic flying with international. I certainly wish we had that deal. But instead, we have the luxury of competing against our friends over at LUV in the only 2 markets we focus on. The 2 most brutalized markets (revenue wise) in the US over the past few years. We are, once again, lucky to be here today. Everyone is so bent on what is going to amount to somewhat tolerable TEMPORARY (AGAIN) concessions, not to save the company directly, but hopefully to convince others who can, that their risk is worth taking. I am pretty certain that no one posting on this board has actually read LOA67, and if you had, you would see that it is structured in a way that is not giving away the farm with no recourse. But, why am I even trying, right? Our "pay freeze" is defined as a "pay cut" in your world. It's nice to know that less than 700 pilots and a fleet of 55 Airbuses have such a pull in this industry. Chances are we will be gone soon enough so you'll be able to point out the fact that Frontier's concessions (TEMPORARY) did nothing to save the airline so why should our case be a factor in your future negotiations.
Let's look at improvements. As has been covered before, once upon a time Frontier paid a salary that would barely make a RAHbro satisfied. Today, there is not a pilot here who isn't benefiting from the efforts FAPA put forth on our behalf. Airbus rates are certainly not industry leading, but also not bottom of the barrel. Since my arrival in 2006, I have seen FAPA negotiate away a relatively worthless ESOP program in exchange for a DC plan in which the company is contributing an additional 6% of my income. Today, I continue to track (as a lazy FO) with overall income and benefits exceeding what I would be making as an 11 year RJ CA at my previous employer. All with work rules allowing me to weasel my way out of ever working a Christmas holiday, averaging 16-17 days off each month, and turning 1 week blocks of vacation into 17-19 day stretches away from work. Each year my pay goes up. Snapbacks have recovered nearly all of the BK concessions. The pay scale continues to shift based on cost of living adjustments negotiated by FAPA.
All while working for a carrier getting pummeled by competition, mismanagement, fuel, BK, etc. I rarely go to sleep with the comfort of knowing I'll have a job in the morning. But, for the past 6 years I have enjoyed combined QOL and pay that a number of my 13+ year UAL (narrowbody) friends tell me they wish they enjoyed (vs. their 90+ hour months with 12 days off). Personally, I don't focus on the hourly numerical figure on my pay stub. If I did I would notice that I make $10-$15 per hour less than my friends at JetBlue and Airtran. But I would also see that I make more than the comparable 6 year rates at Virgin, Spirit, Allegiant, not to mention USAir and (almost) United (granted to CAL rates are better so that may change). I could be commuting to Newark for $119/hr. or LAX for $109/hr., and my paycheck would look a lot better. And, honestly, if I could do it all over again, I just might wish that was the case. But, I also take much more into account like time at home, living in domicile (somewhere I like living), etc. I enjoy my life at Frontier unlike many of my friends at UAL, etc., some of which (after 13 years) have taken military leaves with very little intention of returning.
It's nice that you guys have the luxury of subsidizing your domestic flying with international. I certainly wish we had that deal. But instead, we have the luxury of competing against our friends over at LUV in the only 2 markets we focus on. The 2 most brutalized markets (revenue wise) in the US over the past few years. We are, once again, lucky to be here today. Everyone is so bent on what is going to amount to somewhat tolerable TEMPORARY (AGAIN) concessions, not to save the company directly, but hopefully to convince others who can, that their risk is worth taking. I am pretty certain that no one posting on this board has actually read LOA67, and if you had, you would see that it is structured in a way that is not giving away the farm with no recourse. But, why am I even trying, right? Our "pay freeze" is defined as a "pay cut" in your world. It's nice to know that less than 700 pilots and a fleet of 55 Airbuses have such a pull in this industry. Chances are we will be gone soon enough so you'll be able to point out the fact that Frontier's concessions (TEMPORARY) did nothing to save the airline so why should our case be a factor in your future negotiations.
Frontier pilots have no business slamming RAH guys. None.
Carl
06-20-2011 | 12:19 PM
#149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 423
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From: A-320 Asst. Pilot
And this is why caving in to further demands outside of bankruptcy is completely self-serving. I initially felt bad about you guys being bought by RAH. But your behavior is no different than RAH's. It's all about making BB's dream a reality in your eyes - regardless of what it does to the pilot profession. If BB comes back in 6 months wanting more concessions because Frontier will fail without it, you will certainly give more.
Frontier pilots have no business slamming RAH guys. None.
Carl
Frontier pilots have no business slamming RAH guys. None.
Carl
06-20-2011 | 12:20 PM
#150
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From: 747-400 Captain
Delta pilots take hits in BK after the worst terrorist attack since 9-11 produced the worst revenue environment in history. Those hits by the BK judge took us to well below the $202 figure you show above. Since then, we've used every bit of leverage we have to steadily raise that figure to $202.
I know in your world, Delta pilots have done the exact same thing as Frontier pilots. Your contortions required to save face are sad.
Carl
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