TOP pay was over $220,000 last year.

 

That's actually an 813% increase over 15 years. We never claimed that. Check your math.

 

How do you come up with that?

Let's assume you fly 100 hours a month, 1000 in a year, 10 months of work

- That's 82 hours a month at straight pay for 10 month = $127,920

- I believe every hour above 82 is paid at 125% override so that means 180 hours in a year at that rate or $35,000

- Let's add in 75 hours of guarantee pay for the last two month = $23,400
I'm assuming of course they actually pay you for that time that you can do nothing.

- Let's say you have 450 hours away from base each month at 1.85 = $8,325

That's $194,645 if you work your a$$ off. Where does the extra $25K+ come from? That's 138 hours of pay at your override rate. 86 hours at 200%. 173 at your straight rate. That's also making a pretty big assumption that

1. You time out by November
2. Your company actually pays you those two months you aren't working. Where does 220K+ come from?

 

You are leaving out a huge factor. We bid hardlines and we are paid for everything that touches our vacation. I just flew with a guy that had 182 credits in one month. I saw the pay sheet.

You drop two high credit four days (28 hours each for this example) with one week of vacation. If you are really motivated you pick both of them up during either Monthly open time or Daily open time. If you pick them both back up you get paid another 56 hours on top of your original credit. If you pick up one you can pocket an easy 28 additional hours and still enjoy a nice long stretch of days off.

Captains with four weeks of vacation can very easily bank $100k over four months by using one week of vacation and picking up a portion of what was dropped.

I usually drop down to minimum credit, but my July schedule has 23 days off and 86 hours of credit thanks to one week of vacation. I can pick up three turns and still have 20 days off with 110 hours of credit. After premium pay I would be at around 116 hours credit.

This is one of the many reasons we will never accept pref bid.

 

Don't forget sick time.

 

And bidding a month in feb of reserve and working 15 hours.

 

C.S.
Did you ever read Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations"?

The insights offered there might encourage one to strive for a system (both economic and societal) that works alongside with reasonably anticipated human behavior. (especially behavior that involves their own financial security). There are very few of us who are saints, let alone martyrs. (As an extreme example, I have no intention of committing suicide when I turn 65 so that S.Sec. and Medicare will have more funds available for you when you turn 65. While this example is over-the-top, it is along the same conceptual line that you advocate for the Frontier pilots, or for any pilot who accepts a job with a FFD regional.)
If we wish to have a certain behavior, then an environment must exist that makes the behavior rational.

 

Well Carl, you'll be wasting your time looking for decreases aside from the temporary BK cuts and the year 1 rate which went from $52 down to whatever it is now. I also believe that Frontier pilots took another TEMPORARY cut just after 9/11 in order to avoid furloughs. That about covers the history of pay decreases at Frontier as far as I know.

Let's look at improvements. As has been covered before, once upon a time Frontier paid a salary that would barely make a RAHbro satisfied. Today, there is not a pilot here who isn't benefiting from the efforts FAPA put forth on our behalf. Airbus rates are certainly not industry leading, but also not bottom of the barrel. Since my arrival in 2006, I have seen FAPA negotiate away a relatively worthless ESOP program in exchange for a DC plan in which the company is contributing an additional 6% of my income. Today, I continue to track (as a lazy FO) with overall income and benefits exceeding what I would be making as an 11 year RJ CA at my previous employer. All with work rules allowing me to weasel my way out of ever working a Christmas holiday, averaging 16-17 days off each month, and turning 1 week blocks of vacation into 17-19 day stretches away from work. Each year my pay goes up. Snapbacks have recovered nearly all of the BK concessions. The pay scale continues to shift based on cost of living adjustments negotiated by FAPA.

All while working for a carrier getting pummeled by competition, mismanagement, fuel, BK, etc. I rarely go to sleep with the comfort of knowing I'll have a job in the morning. But, for the past 6 years I have enjoyed combined QOL and pay that a number of my 13+ year UAL (narrowbody) friends tell me they wish they enjoyed (vs. their 90+ hour months with 12 days off). Personally, I don't focus on the hourly numerical figure on my pay stub. If I did I would notice that I make $10-$15 per hour less than my friends at JetBlue and Airtran. But I would also see that I make more than the comparable 6 year rates at Virgin, Spirit, Allegiant, not to mention USAir and (almost) United (granted to CAL rates are better so that may change). I could be commuting to Newark for $119/hr. or LAX for $109/hr., and my paycheck would look a lot better. And, honestly, if I could do it all over again, I just might wish that was the case. But, I also take much more into account like time at home, living in domicile (somewhere I like living), etc. I enjoy my life at Frontier unlike many of my friends at UAL, etc., some of which (after 13 years) have taken military leaves with very little intention of returning.

It's nice that you guys have the luxury of subsidizing your domestic flying with international. I certainly wish we had that deal. But instead, we have the luxury of competing against our friends over at LUV in the only 2 markets we focus on. The 2 most brutalized markets (revenue wise) in the US over the past few years. We are, once again, lucky to be here today. Everyone is so bent on what is going to amount to somewhat tolerable TEMPORARY (AGAIN) concessions, not to save the company directly, but hopefully to convince others who can, that their risk is worth taking. I am pretty certain that no one posting on this board has actually read LOA67, and if you had, you would see that it is structured in a way that is not giving away the farm with no recourse. But, why am I even trying, right? Our "pay freeze" is defined as a "pay cut" in your world. It's nice to know that less than 700 pilots and a fleet of 55 Airbuses have such a pull in this industry. Chances are we will be gone soon enough so you'll be able to point out the fact that Frontier's concessions (TEMPORARY) did nothing to save the airline so why should our case be a factor in your future negotiations.

 

Gotcha, one of the few places still left bidding hard lines. Hard lines are awesome. In light of this I still don't understand why some pilots have such a hard on for PBS but that's a debate for a different thread.

When Bedford comes in asking for PBS I hope you say no.

If you time out at the end of October are you paid guarantee for November and December?

 

Your APC experience will be sooooo much better once you learn how to put Carl on your ignore list.