Scope Proposal at American
11-16-2011, 11:01 AM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by NERD
Gonna let you in on a secret...The other 65000 don't give a @#$$ about you, your family, nor any other pilots. They are hoping that weakdicks such as yourself are the majority. Then the apfa, twu etc. will ask for more and get it. More likely than not their negotiating strategy is to wait the apa out. Seen this show at NWA. It is not elitism, entitlement or whatever you choose to call it. YOU are worth more than flight atts, mx, rampers, dispatch, crew skeds and all but VPs and above. A lot more. It has only been the last 10-15 years that WE have allowed the gap to be narrowed. Obviously, you have bought into the BS that all groups are equal.
No, I'm a firm believer in a good compensation package for us pilots.I just want one that doesn't send us careening over the cliff ala....(stick every other airline thats gone down BK way here!).
11-16-2011, 11:02 AM
#82
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Tomahawk58
So, let's be clear, what you're saying is it's all about just us as pilots!
I really don't have to defend my credentials. I've been blessed to have been a pilot for the last 31plus years including the last 22plus here at AA. Beginning with the sense of duty honed into me by our nation's military. I admit that I lost that sense of duty early in my career here. It's so easy to buy into the fallacy that only we as pilots matter! Its both dangerous, defeatist and hold us back.
I really don't have to defend my credentials. I've been blessed to have been a pilot for the last 31plus years including the last 22plus here at AA. Beginning with the sense of duty honed into me by our nation's military. I admit that I lost that sense of duty early in my career here. It's so easy to buy into the fallacy that only we as pilots matter! Its both dangerous, defeatist and hold us back.
Please.
Does that include the regional pilots you just crapped all over en masse ?
The only thing being said, is these proposals were unacceptable and thus they failed. Core issues will either be satisfactority resolved or AMR will have to make a move elsewhere and try by force.
It's really that simple. Complicating that will get them nowhere.
11-16-2011, 11:04 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by eaglefly
We need to step away from emotion. This person is NOT an AA line pilot and the intent is to alter perception of the conflict at hand. Fortunately, it's becoming more and more obvious what this is and he's now getting pilots to attack each other.
Division is GOOD for his bosses and a part of the purpose.
As for AA the APA, the recent proposals are DOA. HOWEVER, if more proposals arrive, it's improtant to try and REDUCE THE EXPECTATIONS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Dividing the group only assists in that.
Don't take the bait and see the obvious for what it is.
Division is GOOD for his bosses and a part of the purpose.
As for AA the APA, the recent proposals are DOA. HOWEVER, if more proposals arrive, it's improtant to try and REDUCE THE EXPECTATIONS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Dividing the group only assists in that.
Don't take the bait and see the obvious for what it is.
11-16-2011, 11:05 AM
#84
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Tomahawk58
This is an interesting notion of equality. No one in this company comes anywhere close to our compensation outside the top 20 officers if that many!
No, I'm a firm believer in a good compensation package for US pilots.I just want one that doesn't send us careening over the cliff ala....(stick every other airline thats gone down BK way here!).
No, I'm a firm believer in a good compensation package for US pilots.I just want one that doesn't send us careening over the cliff ala....(stick every other airline thats gone down BK way here!).
Example in point.
Why do you phrase it "us" pilots ?
Sounds odd. For it to appear less contrived, it should be written as, "...package for AA pilots" or "...THE pilots". I think that's how most would phrase that unless (all of a sudden) they needed a successful backpeddling move for credibility by attempting to re-establish a common bond put into question.
Too many slips of the lip for me.
Last edited by eaglefly; 11-16-2011 at 11:27 AM.
11-16-2011, 11:09 AM
#85
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Tomahawk58
I guess because you say I'm not a pilot and captain that doesn't make me one right? I see arrogance is also in play!
What matters is AMR is where it is, SOLELY be it's own mismanagement and it appears the majority of AA pilots have no interest in willingly administering the coup-de-grace to their careers to once again propel the current regime to new levels of wealth.
It doesn't get any simpler then that.
11-16-2011, 12:00 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2011
Posts: 262
Originally Posted by eaglefly
Yes, I'm saying I do not believe you're an AA line pilot. My suggestion to others to consider that seriously, doesn't mean they have to. Others come to their own conclusions. It matters little though.
What matters is AMR is where it is, SOLELY be it's own mismanagement and it appears the majority of AA pilots have no interest in willingly administering the coup-de-grace to their careers to once again propel the current regime to new levels of wealth.
It doesn't get any simpler then that.
What matters is AMR is where it is, SOLELY be it's own mismanagement and it appears the majority of AA pilots have no interest in willingly administering the coup-de-grace to their careers to once again propel the current regime to new levels of wealth.
It doesn't get any simpler then that.
"Your honor, we'd rather go BK than take the reasonable path. We believe we deserve much more and we know you will see things our way".
I'm sure that's the way it played out at Delta, CO, UA, US, TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Eastern. I know I've missed a couple of other airlines that have been down that path. Can someone here show factually at which of those carriers, the labor groups came out ahead with a better compensation package than they entered BK with? Name just one!
11-16-2011, 12:12 PM
#88
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Originally Posted by Tomahawk58
I guess that will be a novel position to take in court if we are unfortunate enough to go that route. I can see the narrative:
"Your honor, we'd rather go BK than take the reasonable path. We believe we deserve much more and we know you will see things our way".
I'm sure that's the way it played out at Delta, CO, UA, US, TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Eastern. I know I've missed a couple of other airlines that have been down that path. Can someone here show factually at which of those carriers, the labor groups came out ahead with a better compensation package than they entered BK with? Name just one!
"Your honor, we'd rather go BK than take the reasonable path. We believe we deserve much more and we know you will see things our way".
I'm sure that's the way it played out at Delta, CO, UA, US, TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Eastern. I know I've missed a couple of other airlines that have been down that path. Can someone here show factually at which of those carriers, the labor groups came out ahead with a better compensation package than they entered BK with? Name just one!
That doesn't give a whole lot of motivation to help the company if they are just going BK anyways. I'd be willing to bet that even if the pilots took 80% paycuts, AA would still be losing money. It's just not worth it when a company is that poorly run.
11-16-2011, 12:13 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Originally Posted by Tomahawk58
I guess that will be a novel position to take in court if we are unfortunate enough to go that route. I can see the narrative:
"Your honor, we'd rather go BK than take the reasonable path. We believe we deserve much more and we know you will see things our way".
I'm sure that's the way it played out at Delta, CO, UA, US, TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Eastern. I know I've missed a couple of other airlines that have been down that path. Can someone here show factually at which of those carriers, the labor groups came out ahead with a better compensation package than they entered BK with? Name just one!
"Your honor, we'd rather go BK than take the reasonable path. We believe we deserve much more and we know you will see things our way".
I'm sure that's the way it played out at Delta, CO, UA, US, TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Eastern. I know I've missed a couple of other airlines that have been down that path. Can someone here show factually at which of those carriers, the labor groups came out ahead with a better compensation package than they entered BK with? Name just one!
Let me make this clear:
They want to dump their portion of pension liability. Yours and every other employees as well. Wake up. It happened at USAir, United, Delta and to an extent Northwest.
It is also happening all across America.
That being said:
Why give them more than one bite at the apple?
Anything they can secure prior to going into BK and 1113 is icing on the cake. Anything they attain while dropping 1113 on you in addition to shedding their pension liabilities is even more icing for them.
Read up on Hawaiian's trip through for the right way as employees to deal with this.
11-16-2011, 12:14 PM
#90
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Tomahawk58
I guess that will be a novel position to take in court if we are unfortunate enough to go that route. I can see the narrative:
"Your honor, we'd rather go BK than take the reasonable path. We believe we deserve much more and we know you will see things our way".
I'm sure that's the way it played out at Delta, CO, UA, US, TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Eastern. I know I've missed a couple of other airlines that have been down that path. Can someone here show factually at which of those carriers, the labor groups came out ahead with a better compensation package than they entered BK with? Name just one!
"Your honor, we'd rather go BK than take the reasonable path. We believe we deserve much more and we know you will see things our way".
I'm sure that's the way it played out at Delta, CO, UA, US, TWA, Pan Am, Branniff, Eastern. I know I've missed a couple of other airlines that have been down that path. Can someone here show factually at which of those carriers, the labor groups came out ahead with a better compensation package than they entered BK with? Name just one!
Bankruptcy sucks... I know eaglefly looks longingly at that as a viable option for some reason, but believe me.. you do not want to go there. WE (the rest of the industry) do not want you to go there.
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