Trip7

I like the way you think Shiz. Very analytical.

Scoop

Clamp,

Probably not a victory, a stalemate perhaps, but I don't think we had a chance for much of a victory last time around. I am glad we locked in the lower RJ numbers for a bunch of reasons.

Many say the 50 seaters were going away anyway because they were not economical. Probably, but remember we were buying RJs by the hundreds at a time when they were already uneconomical.

And what if the price of oil declines with improved extraction technology (fracking). Under a slower 50 seat drawdown plan could not the company have decided to keep them around longer, maybe a lot longer, with cheap oil?

I agree the 50 seaters were eventually going away (no first class) but I am glad we now have it in writing and it is not subject to management changing the plan if oil goes lower, and I also like the fact that we can not get more of the large RJs until after we are operating the 717s.

Did we bargain for something that was going to happen anyway - probably to some extent but I think we also gained somewhat from this deal.

Was it a great deal - No. Was it a good deal - maybe, but keep in mind we were basically bargaining mostly against ourselves since UAL and AMR were both still under BK contracts.

I think allowing RJs to operate at DCI was one of ALPAs biggest fails. I was furloughed while DCI was hiring hundreds of Pilots - I get it. But I am glad the RJs are in decline and am also glad we held the line at 76 seats.

After a decade of losing ground on Scope in both total seats and seats allowed, we actually made a slight improvement in Scope.


Scoop

Carl Spackler

"Giving" 1.5 Billion to their pilots? It was completely funded by our cuts in profit sharing, and large increases in productivity, etc. That's why Delta management refers to this contract as cost neutral to Delta.

But you knew that.

Carl

80ktsClamp

What? How does it mean I believe we had no leverage? It means we didn't use a single bit of the leverage we had. The company gave us what they wanted to do anyways, and we gave them profit sharing and workrules back, too. The company wanted a deal, we had the leverage, and subsequently folded like a lawn chair.

AMR, UAL, CAL, and LCC aren't making record breaking profits... DAL is, despite the 1.5 BILLION!!!!111!! (supposedly- I think it's much closer to cost neutral) So as a shareholder, you should be happy. Think about what we could have gotten had ALPA actually used some leverage?

Every junky thing we got in C2012 was offset by something and was exactly what the company wanted. Park 50 seaters and add 717s? Add a bunch of jumbo RJs (long term viable!) and get ratios far below actual plans . Pay bump? Reduce profit sharing by 33% during a period of record breaking profits. Slight bump in vacation and a below par min day? Work rules concessions and ALV+15. Everything was offset.

We're witnessing the results of this now, too. We are down several hundred captain positions since C2012 was signed. (yeah, we "added" some on the bids, but we aren't replacing what we have lost).

Carl Spackler

Our new scope clause allows RJ groups to operate 70 additional brand new fuel efficient dual class passenger preferred 76 seat RJ's. Flying more of those is a big benefit to those pilot groups because it breaths new life into the DCI experiment. It does hurt those RJ pilots who want to come here some day though.

Regional pilots can do exactly that, and you know it. They just did it twice to us. First was after our required "meet and confer" that led to a TA that had benefits for regional pilots in our scope section!

Second is this latest Pinnacle agreement (signed by Moak without our MEC even knowing about it) that requires Delta to perform in a way that's not in our scope section! Making it a defacto part of our scope section.

Nowhere near as badly impacted by the weakness and backward movement presided over by ALPA. During which time the independent unions at UPS and SWA kept steady increases.

With any luck, Delta will have an independent union soon.

Carl

80ktsClamp

Highly doubtful on the 50 seaters. The company overbought them in huge numbers in order to extract pay and workrule concessions from mainline. It's at least a bit ironic that we traded reduced pay increases in C2012 to "help" reduce to more realistic numbers what was used to rape mainline in the first place.

I have a tough time calling it a scope victory still... it's more just letting the company do what it wants to do with perhaps a nod in our direction in a couple places. A true victory would have been locking in more realistic ratios and initiating methods to bring the flying back to mainline.

What's done is done, though...

Carl Spackler

And the previous hard cap of 255 large RJ's would still be here, and as we now know, the 717's were coming anyway because of their need to replace the DC-9 and the older A319's and A320's.

Carl

flybywire44

Thank you sir.

152SIC

All valid points.

However, the best bargaining tactic would be to not take a job that pays peanut wages.

forgot to bid

alright help me out and make sure these numbers are right. I took them from wikipedia except for Delta which I made based on what the current contract will allow and is transitioning into.