Tracking Regional Outsourcing
06-24-2013 | 06:08 PM
#41
Works Every Weekend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,506
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From: 737 ATL
Its a complex situation and there are many nuances to the whole saga.
But we just keep giving management everything they ask for and they give us crumbs.
I have one bottom line factor that says it all for me --
The mainline seniority list is shrinking and has been for a long time.
We are all stagnated and the displacements just keep on coming.
DALPA needs to try something different. What they've been doing ain't working.
There are encouraging rumors out there. Maybe Delta will buy a few widebody jets sometime shortly. Maybe we will hire some pilots next year. That would lift spirits quite a little bit.
06-24-2013 | 07:42 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 0
From: right for a long, long time
I hear you shiz.
Its a complex situation and there are many nuances to the whole saga.
But we just keep giving management everything they ask for and they give us crumbs.
I have one bottom line factor that says it all for me --
The mainline seniority list is shrinking and has been for a long time.
We are all stagnated and the displacements just keep on coming.
DALPA needs to try something different. What they've been doing ain't working.
There are encouraging rumors out there. Maybe Delta will buy a few widebody jets sometime shortly. Maybe we will hire some pilots next year. That would lift spirits quite a little bit.
Its a complex situation and there are many nuances to the whole saga.
But we just keep giving management everything they ask for and they give us crumbs.
I have one bottom line factor that says it all for me --
The mainline seniority list is shrinking and has been for a long time.
We are all stagnated and the displacements just keep on coming.
DALPA needs to try something different. What they've been doing ain't working.
There are encouraging rumors out there. Maybe Delta will buy a few widebody jets sometime shortly. Maybe we will hire some pilots next year. That would lift spirits quite a little bit.
We both want the same thing: more money, better QOL, and tighter scope, and cutting 1/4 of the DCI fleet in a 3.5 year span while keeping the line at 76 is a solid move. Great as a "final step".... No only no, but H3LL NO!
Another 25% would be 113 jets. Would a new 2015 PWA limit that had an end state of 337 aircraft with the 76 seat line held be another step in the right direction?
I agree, its time for movement and growth.. There is some pent up frustration for sure.
06-25-2013 | 06:03 AM
#44
Thread Starter
Flies With The Hat On
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
From: Right of the Left Seat
*You're telling me a bunch = 218 and that a bunch = 70? The transitive property of equality would then say that 218=70. I would contend that is NOT true.
Yes Check, it is quite a list.....because I don't have myopia when it comes to the topic. Scope problems are complex and have built up over many years, and it will take complex solutions over many years to fix it.
Let me un-simplify your example a just a little bit: Management was stuck with 218 jets on long term contracts they couldn't get out of that was left over from a past management team that really ruined the place, and was a major anchor to the future.
We gave them less than 1/3 of that number to offer as "sweeteners" for other companies to agree to break the contracts on the money-losers, and put more restrictions on the remaining ones, PLUS tighten other parts of the DAL PWA scope language.
Additionally, D-ALPA also managed to put a solid chunk (in the 1.5-2 BILLION DOLLAR range) of the money that was going to be spent on keeping those jets in service (lift contracts and long-term maintenance) into the Delta pilots' checking accounts and QOL provisions.
Your energy is great and your desire to improve our position is admirable... I'm all for mainline carriers to reduce and hopefully eliminate outsourcing, and we are on the same page about that. Where we differ is our view on how much progress has been made.
A real mess was left for our generation of airline pilots, and it will take LOTS of rounds of negotiations to fix it.
Yes Check, it is quite a list.....because I don't have myopia when it comes to the topic. Scope problems are complex and have built up over many years, and it will take complex solutions over many years to fix it.
Let me un-simplify your example a just a little bit: Management was stuck with 218 jets on long term contracts they couldn't get out of that was left over from a past management team that really ruined the place, and was a major anchor to the future.
We gave them less than 1/3 of that number to offer as "sweeteners" for other companies to agree to break the contracts on the money-losers, and put more restrictions on the remaining ones, PLUS tighten other parts of the DAL PWA scope language.
Additionally, D-ALPA also managed to put a solid chunk (in the 1.5-2 BILLION DOLLAR range) of the money that was going to be spent on keeping those jets in service (lift contracts and long-term maintenance) into the Delta pilots' checking accounts and QOL provisions.
Your energy is great and your desire to improve our position is admirable... I'm all for mainline carriers to reduce and hopefully eliminate outsourcing, and we are on the same page about that. Where we differ is our view on how much progress has been made.
A real mess was left for our generation of airline pilots, and it will take LOTS of rounds of negotiations to fix it.
06-25-2013 | 06:22 AM
#45
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
That would've taken care of 125 50 seaters. How about the other 93? And what are the odds that a liquidation would've been authorized? I'm positive someone other then Delta could've provided financing. IIRC, there were a group of shareholders that wanted someone else to provide the DIP financing. There was a lawsuit filed over it. So I'm not sure a "simple liquidation" would've just taken care of it.
06-25-2013 | 07:18 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 0
From: right for a long, long time
That would've taken care of 125 50 seaters. How about the other 93? And what are the odds that a liquidation would've been authorized? I'm positive someone other then Delta could've provided financing. IIRC, there were a group of shareholders that wanted someone else to provide the DIP financing. There was a lawsuit filed over it. So I'm not sure a "simple liquidation" would've just taken care of it.
Using PNCL control to reduce the RJ feed would likely have left the DAL pilots working under the old PWA since Inc. wouldn't have needed "help" from the pilots. They'd be making less with worse workrules and scope that would not have protected them as well in the Virgin Aust. JV or the Virgin Atl. codeshare(and upcoming JV).
Furthermore, I think it's likely the AA BK agreement would have been far more onerous and I also doubt that UCAL would have gotten as good a deal, in the theory of "pattern bargaining".
06-25-2013 | 03:29 PM
#47
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I think he means, "orderly drawdown" instead of "liquidate". The leverage to get a RJ swap was actually time limited, if DAL gained control of PNCL before the mainline pilots secured a new PWA, the "necessity" that DAL Inc. felt at the time would have been alleviated by gaining control of PNCL.
Using PNCL control to reduce the RJ feed would likely have left the DAL pilots working under the old PWA since Inc. wouldn't have needed "help" from the pilots. They'd be making less with worse workrules and scope that would not have protected them as well in the Virgin Aust. JV or the Virgin Atl. codeshare(and upcoming JV).
Furthermore, I think it's likely the AA BK agreement would have been far more onerous and I also doubt that UCAL would have gotten as good a deal, in the theory of "pattern bargaining".
Using PNCL control to reduce the RJ feed would likely have left the DAL pilots working under the old PWA since Inc. wouldn't have needed "help" from the pilots. They'd be making less with worse workrules and scope that would not have protected them as well in the Virgin Aust. JV or the Virgin Atl. codeshare(and upcoming JV).
Furthermore, I think it's likely the AA BK agreement would have been far more onerous and I also doubt that UCAL would have gotten as good a deal, in the theory of "pattern bargaining".
A more likely scenario is that Delta wanted to re-fleet with next Gen RJ's and obtained a better return on that couple Billion capital investment by facilitating a better outsourcing deal. I would prefer to believe Tim O'Malley has at least a modicum of sense and got something for letting another pilot group in the door to do an alter ego deal with his management.
From our President's home State
VILLE PLATTE, La. — A Louisiana woman has pleaded guilty to selling two children for a cockatoo and $175 in what her attorney called an attempt to do a good thing that went wrong. "It was a really clumsy attempt at an adoption proceeding," said Steve Sikich, attorney for Donna Louise Greenwell of Pitkin.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 06-25-2013 at 03:53 PM.
06-25-2013 | 04:14 PM
#48
:-)
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Likes: 1
Another thing to consider is that the bridge agreement looks likely to be piercing the corporate veil. This means if God forbid something happens to a CRJ900, Delta is liable for damages. Management must have really wanted this deal.
06-25-2013 | 04:16 PM
#49
:-)
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Likes: 1
That would've taken care of 125 50 seaters. How about the other 93? And what are the odds that a liquidation would've been authorized? I'm positive someone other then Delta could've provided financing. IIRC, there were a group of shareholders that wanted someone else to provide the DIP financing. There was a lawsuit filed over it. So I'm not sure a "simple liquidation" would've just taken care of it.
06-25-2013 | 05:41 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,642
Likes: 0
From: right for a long, long time
Tap dancing Jeremiah Weed drinkin purple Unicorn, you see a lot of stuff that no one else sees.
A more likely scenario is that Delta wanted to re-fleet with next Gen RJ's and obtained a better return on that couple Billion capital investment by facilitating a better outsourcing deal. I would prefer to believe Tim O'Malley has at least a modicum of sense and got something for letting another pilot group in the door to do an alter ego deal with his management.
A more likely scenario is that Delta wanted to re-fleet with next Gen RJ's and obtained a better return on that couple Billion capital investment by facilitating a better outsourcing deal. I would prefer to believe Tim O'Malley has at least a modicum of sense and got something for letting another pilot group in the door to do an alter ego deal with his management.
Dontcha think the Company conceded over 1.5 BILLION in increased costs over 3.5 years with a 6 month early deal for greedy overpaid pilots because they actually did want to shrink the 50 seat DCI footprint and cost structure?
If they could do it with a PNCL drawdown/ swap and not need the assistance of the Delta pilots, wouldn't they have done that? They could have very easily let us languish for a year beyond the amendable date without a new deal and it wouldn't even make the news, putting off the added costs for 18 months.
My concern is that there will not be any impetus to get an early/quick deal in 2015 and DAL will be "status quo" until 2017-18 when UCAL and AA are also back at the table... Why pay more than the market price for pilot labor unless it forces your competitors to match against their will?
