Pack, I like you, and I don't think you're treated fairly over on the G4 thread, but calling us a regional with big jets is premature.

We're in transition and it's hard. Hostility between management and labor is hardly unusual. Nothing new. We have a strong, historically reliable FAPA that is determined to do everything legally possible to preserve and better our position going forward.

If in 5 years somebody posts a tread like this, then fair enough, you win. But the jury isn't even close to adjournment on this one. This massive painful transition has only just begun. And I'll say it again, what F9 was before, in all it's glory, pointed out eloquently by Zoo, unfortunately wasn't viable.

I agree with the post about Spirit's struggles in the Indigo days. Would someone start this thread about them today? By all accounts it's a great place to go. Is Spirit a regional with big Jets?

True, the contract is being violated. I wouldn't say systematically, but in some areas yes, it is. But we have a grievance process, and FAPA is not giving one inch. We will be the ones laughing last on these issues, if we stay the course. Learn our contract, educate and help one another with it, and file the grievances. What more can we do? What more can any pilot group do? Don't underestimate the F9 group. Not the old guys, not the new guys.

This place isn't even close to the disaster G4 is. No offense boys. The comparison was mentioned several times in this thread, and it's total bull$h!t !

Pay issues here are unforgivable, but I think it is a result of antiquated manual systems and not by design. We'll get this fixed. Same with benefit problems. When things settle down we can get some of these things fixed.

Maybe I'm just taking this tone because I'm scared to death I jumped out of the frying pan (Mesa) into the fire. Well that would be human nature wouldn't it? But I've examined my motives often, and even if the psychology is somewhat true, it doesn't mean my assertions are false.

It's going to be a tough road, but I think we'll be ok. No Pack, we are not a regional with big jets. We're a narrow-body operator in the midst of a massive business model metamorphosis.

Lets have some patience along with dignity and strength.

 

Any one know if F9 will be attending the job fair next month in LAS?

 

My personal opinion is that the whole ULCC business model is the "regional with big jets" model. Its all part of the drive to lower the bar for the pilot profession.

I hate seeing a quality airline like F9 going the "Spirit" way.

 

They are, and I'm hoping to be first in line.

 

In that respect I understand what you're saying Pack, but what other choice was there?

Believe me I don't want to disparage what Frontier was before. 95% of the guys I fly with represent the quality you speak of. But where was this quality airline headed?

Are you saying there was a niche that the Legacy Frontier could have filled and still been profitable? Honest question.

 

I picked this statement from your post because it demonstrates that you have a very short time horizon upon which to base your analysis of the current state of the operation.

The current pay system has been in place since roughly 2005. Yes, small tweaks have been made along the way, but our current VP of flight ops was processing the payroll manually a decade ago and the payroll process hasn't changed much since then.

Yes, the Company has been busy and distracted over the past DECADE, but suggesting it hasn't had time to address the automation of something as important as payroll is ridiculous. That's like saying I've been too busy for the past 5 years to hang a single picture in my "new" house. I haven't done it because it's not important to me. Or another of my favorite analogies: I'm sitting in a dark room claiming I'm REALLY TRYING to turn on the overhead light… when my fat a$$ hasn't left my chair the whole time. You're not trying or it'd be done.

I don't want to be one of the old guys who says your opinion doesn't matter until you've been here for XX years (believe me, I heard it, too, when I had been here 18 months). Rather, I'd just offer a suggestion that just because you, personally, have only been experiencing this stuff for the last 18 months doesn't mean it hasn't been going on for some multiple of 18 months.

In addition to the ongoing payroll screwups, please also see: Trip Split Automation (hint: Contract 2007); Real time daily open time processing (hint: Contract 2007); Reserve day swaps (hint: Contract 2007); Mutual agreement for hotel accommodations; Crew scheduling assigning illegal trips, etc. All these things have been buggered up for YEARS with acknowledgements and promises made at every recurrent ground school that "we're working on it, but [insert the issue du jour] is a higher priority right now.

I am not a smart man, Jenny, but after a decade of listening to the same rah-rah speeches at recurrent ground school, I AM starting to see a pattern.

 

These boards are tough because text limits expression. If we flew together Open, I don't think I'd come off as so naive, narrow-minded, or FNGish. And I do thank you for not leveling that charge against me even though it could be fairly leveled.

Ok I hear what you're saying loud and clear. You're right, but my question to you and every Frontier pilot on here is what do we do about it???

When I first showed up here It was bitter-sweet. On one hand I was on cloud-F9 and I couldn't wipe the smile off my face. I'm pushing 45 now and felt that I'd made a great decision for a guy in my shoes, but on the other hand I was scared to death. I had been a Mesa lifer with awesome seniority, a brand new EJet, and tons of new flying on the horizon. It took all the courage I could muster and the gentle prodding of my wife to leave. I was scared to death! Fortunately, I had an extremely positive training experience here with amazing instructors and the mood around here was good because F9 had just received it's new lease on life. My concerns quickly faded.

Then as I settled in, the reality of the brutally low pay started to actually hit me, and the realization that 2nd year was as abysmal. I'm the guy who made all those charts for crying out loud, I get it! I tried to get medical insurance for my family but couldn't afford it. Slowly but surely I started hearing repeatedly about contract violations, and pay issues. One day 'BAM' 5 day trips showed up in the bid packet, I felt physically ill. I start seeing emails to the whole group warning about calling in sick too much, and one CA told me he was asked for a Dr's note. Then I got an email about having my email taken away. Then I started seeing news articles about the end of Denver as we know it. Had a few illegal pairings put on me. Started hearing captain after captain tell me about how they got a raw deal in an open-time transaction. All this started piling up on me and I started freaking out that I had just left a (left seat, top of the list) nightmare for a (right seat, bottom of the list) nightmare.

You'll remember some of my posts several months ago weren't too rosy. In fact, then, I was getting the "S T F Up, you're still on probation and haven't earned the right to b! it ch yet" replies. Those criticisms actually caused me to take a look at myself. I did some soul searching and realized I can go ahead and fall into the negativity trap and drive myself crazy about that which I cannot control, or I can take a more positive outlook, and try to be part of a solution. Because, your recount of F9s history notwithstanding, the future is not etched in stone.

I spent 10 years at a place that has one of the worse reputations in the industry, but in the decade I was there I watched the pilot group make amazing strides. Some inside section 6, others totally outside section 6. The place actually became better over time. Sure, there was nothing ground-breaking, but I saw many annoying problems addressed and fixed. We lost ground sometimes, and we gained sometimes, but nothing ever happened to our benefit that we didn't directly make happen. Mesa is still a crappy regional don't get me wrong, but I'm speaking in relative terms. So no-one cares what happened at Brand X - I get that, but the principle of working together to achieve gains is universal.

The bottom line is this. What choice do we have Open? We live or die alongside F9. I'm not leaving for Delta, are you? It falls squarely on our shoulders, the pilot group's, to make this place better. Lets do it!


...

 

I snipped a bunch from your post just to keep the quote down to a manageable size. I appreciate your thoughtful response and hope you don't regard the snip as anything other than editing for length. I think the gist of your post is captured within the text I quoted.

I agree that state of mind is important. I agree with the concept of working together. I agree that if all you do is gripe about a problem, it's not likely to be fixed.

The part that I can't get on board with is that there's nothing between a full-on gripe fest and the acceptance of the Company's continued empty promises and excuses.

In a round-about way, what I'm really saying is that all us old-timers, to one extent or another, did exactly what you're doing. WE did it as a defense mechanism. WE really wanted to believe all the promises of rainbows and butterflies offered by management in recurrent ground school speeches.

We "extended the runway." We "lived to fight another day." We were "team members" and "participated in the continued existence of the airline." We extended our contract--which was marginally acceptable in 2007--for a full 10 years because management told us it was imperative for the survival of the airline. We gave up $10million a year in concessions against a $1300 million (1.3B) a year budget because management told us that we were the difference between the airline's survival and extinction. We were snookered into believing that we are business partners in the running of an airline.

We taxi on one engine. We do cross-bleed starts on the roll. We take off unpressurized. We land Flaps-3. We almost never use reverse. We hold off on starting the APU until half the passengers are exhibiting signs of heat stroke. Heck, I even once flew with a captain who turned off the strobes in the daytime to save the company money!

We bought all this management nonsense. We swallowed hook, line and sinker. In more recent years, more and more "team members" have come to the realization that the "asks" and the promises of a better tomorrow will never end until we stop being receptive to the management BS.

In reality, all I'm asking is that you learn from my mistakes and resist the urge to press the repeat button on the most recent 10 years. By excusing management's unwillingness to rectify longstanding and continuing screwups, you are repeating our mistakes. By (implicit in your recent posts) accepting the premise that management is even interested in fixing these problems, you are encouraging them to continue making empty promises.

So what can we do to change the situation?

1. Hold management accountable to the terms of our CBA. EVERYONE needs to know and follow the CBA. Gone are the days of allowing a small, vocal minority to shoulder this burden on behalf of the entire pilot group. We have a bunch of freeloaders who say nothing to CBA violations in order to maintain their rosy relationship with management in hopes of being rewarded with check airman, special pilot, sim instructor, assistant chief pilot, or chief pilot status.

2. Challenge management when they offer yet another empty promise. If you're uncomfortable with direct confrontation, at the very least, don't act as a mouthpiece for management by repeating management's empty promises to encourage potential new hires and/or discourage existing pilots from pointing out management's shortcomings.

3. Find fulfillment outside of work. Family, hobbies, second career, whatever. Consider this job as absolutely nothing more than a dysfunctional business relationship. Harsh? Yes, but I think this is key to personal sanity.

As for whether I'm going to another airline… Nope. I'm one of the people who is effectively stuck here. I'm not a wife beater or murderer or alcoholic. I've never had an FAA violation or anything like that. I've got my 1000 hours TPIC. My story is that I have strong family and outside business ties to Colorado and I have a second career that makes my airline career largely superfluous. If there comes a time when I can't hold a position in Denver, I'll quit.

I'm 99.9% certain we'd get along just fine if we ever fly together. I'll be sure to identify myself if this ever happens.

I read an analogy on this forum several years ago in the context of flying as an expat for foreign carriers. I've adopted the philosophy for my career at Frontier. I have two (metaphorical) buckets, 1 for sh|t and the other for money. When either of the buckets is full, it's time to quit. Both my buckets are filling, but not full, and that's why I'm still here.

 

A truly excellent post Open! I read it slowly and with great care. I understand and agree with every word. I also accept the criticism because it is valid. I mean it - thank you for taking the time and caring enough to write this. I'll be giving this a lot of thought as I consider how to conduct myself with regard to these matters, whether on this board, the crewroom, RGS or even in the cockpit. Thanks again!

 

Hardly a regional with big jets model. You should see what pay rates they are seeking for their next contract (Spirit that is)

I too would hate to see the product change from what F9 has been known for to a pack like sardines model like Spirit. But I must admit they are making money and their stock is through the roof.