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Old 10-07-2008, 09:49 AM   #31  
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They took it down. It was not to be posted. It is a exhibit in the arbitration and was not mean for public release.

The reason you are seeing that is, Ratio, by EQUIPMENT. Now we will see if the arbitrator agrees with it. NWA may do such a good job with their presentation that we may be DOH, and then all of that DAL guys will loose 4-8%. I myself will maintain what I have under this proposal, and DOH has me loose well over 8%.
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:59 AM   #32  
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I guess my point is that I keep hearing DAL wants relative seniority but that is not what was presented...... My hope is we get something that all can be "relatively" happy with.

Last edited by NWA320pilot; 10-07-2008 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:01 AM   #33  
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Wink Same goes for seniority lists

Laws are like sausages. It's better not to see them being made.
Otto von Bismarck (1815 - 1898)
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:07 AM   #34  
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Amen to that. It is quite true, and that quote was used last week with the bail out bill.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:08 AM   #35  
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DAL has always preached relative by equipment and that is what was presented.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:12 AM   #36  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
DAL has always preached relative by equipment and that is what was presented.
Hmmm, not what I was seeing posted here. Straight relative seniority was what was being said by many.
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Old 10-07-2008, 10:54 AM   #37  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
Yes, that's probably right. My point is, ratioing in such a broad category is what gives the DAL guys the 1 to 4% advantage right from the jump and it only gets worse until you get to the bottom where it's only NWA guys.

A ratio of just 777 and 747, then A330 and 767, then narrow bodies would have resulted in closer relative seniority results. Instead it's about a 1.5% NWA disadvantage near the top and 5% plus NWA disadvantage near the bottom. Given that we are both strong airlines with NWA having a higher market cap and higher earnings, I don't see how this systemic DAL advantage from top to bottom will ultimately be justified.

Carl
Carl, surprisingly I find myself agreeing with you, but in a limited sense, and for purposes of compromise towards the top of the list. Ratioing 747/777 capt. positions would result in a slight advantage for NW ie. 237/193=1.22 at the very top.(remember all 777 flying is 12hr.+ augmented, 2 capts. per crew) But then the remaining international widebody positions (to include the limited 757 int'l at both companies) ratio would be more skewed toward Delta, at 820/347=2.36. Even more of a compromise would be to ratio 747, 330/777,767-400 which would result in even more of an advantage for NW at the very top, ie. 517/374=1.38. But then again, while NW would have an advantage in the top 891 positions of 1.38 to 1, that would leave 639 true, international widebody (767ER) capt. positions at DL and 67 (15% of NW 757 flying) international capt. positions at NW, resulting in a nearly 10 to 1 ratio for DL in the next (892-1597) 706 positions. Even if you then wanted to equate your remaining 447-67=380 domestic 757capt. positions with those 639 DL 767ER widebody international ("super premium", by comparison) positions you would first have to plow through the 781 capt. position DL domestic 767/757 category, which, in a huge concession,(equating NW dom. 757 time with DL International widebody time and their respective payrates brought to the merger) would still result in a 639+781/380=3.73 to 1 ratio for DL from positions 892 through 2691. The problem here of course, is that DL carries about 50 more international wide body aircraft than does NW, which equates to about 500 more capt. positions and nearly 900 more F/O positions. I am no mathematician, but it seems the more favorable the ratio is at the top of the list for NW, the less favorable it neccessarily has to be for NW towards the middle and the bottom... BTW, my relative % stayed the same in the DL proposal at 5%. ( by "stovepipe" filling of positions I would be a junior 767-400 capt., can easily "hold" 777 and 767-400, currently 76ER. 1985 hire date) Under compromise scenario #2 above (747,330/777,767-400=1.38 to 1) I would go from 5% to 7%...
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:02 AM   #38  
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Exactly. It is taking all positions and the scope of those positions in to account. Depending on where in the proposal you look it is like you post above. 1 to 2. or 1 to 1. You can tell that there was a great deal of time taken putting this together.
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:26 AM   #39  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acl65pilot View Post
...DOH has me loose well over 8%.
Hey, but at least you have no pension!

Soup
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Old 10-07-2008, 11:40 AM   #40  
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NWA may do such a good job with their presentation that we may be DOH, and then all of that DAL guys will loose 4-8%. I myself will maintain what I have under this proposal, and DOH has me loose well over 8%.
Yep, my observations exactly. I found that with DALPA's proposal I would maintain relative seniority. With DOH I will loose 7% relative seniority. Overall the difference between best case and worst case for me, is 1,177 numbers. I bring this up for comparison purposes for mid seniority DAL guys like me. At any rate it's the story of my life: "stuck in the middle."

acl65pilot: what's the skinny on the AE. Is it going to be mostly 777 stuff in ATL?
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