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Old 10-07-2008, 11:51 AM   #41  
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You guys at the top have nothing to worry about. 1 or 2 or 5% is not going to kick you out of your seat. The real action is at the bottom. Our MEC proposal protects our (DAL) expectation of not being furloughed because the 9s get retired and replaced by Compass.

The post bankruptcy business plans presented in the first two days of hearings were most enlightening. One side was planning for growth and one side for contraction. The bottom of the list looks just about right.

Here's hoping that the combined company is as powerful and as vibrant as planned and hoped for so everyone rises.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:50 PM   #42  
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For the life of me, I cannot fathom how DOH is even close to "fair and equitable," which is supposedly what NALPA's negotiators claim to desire.

I won't say they're lying, but to believe them requires a pretty active imagination.
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Old 10-07-2008, 01:10 PM   #43  
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Nope. When it happens it will more than likely take in to account the need for extra bodies on the international side with all of the DH that will be done next year. Need 777, 765, and ER positions for this. We are about to see a lot of different places.
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:55 PM   #44  
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Exactly. It is taking all positions and the scope of those positions in to account. Depending on where in the proposal you look it is like you post above. 1 to 2. or 1 to 1. You can tell that there was a great deal of time taken putting this together.
Yes you certainly can. DALPA came up with a ratio method that disadvantaged every single NWA pilot. That takes a lot of imagination because a straight mathematical ratio would not have done that to every single NWA pilot. That much imagination takes time.

I know it's just a proposal and like the Moak/Stevens letter said the other day: 'this is negotaiation...don't go insane over what you are about to read. This is what both sides always do to each other.'

Carl
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:59 PM   #45  
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Yep, my observations exactly. I found that with DALPA's proposal I would maintain relative seniority. With DOH I will loose 7% relative seniority. Overall the difference between best case and worst case for me, is 1,177 numbers. I bring this up for comparison purposes for mid seniority DAL guys like me. At any rate it's the story of my life: "stuck in the middle."

acl65pilot: what's the skinny on the AE. Is it going to be mostly 777 stuff in ATL?
And thus we now have the initial positions of DALPA and NALPA. DALPA's proposed list disadvantages every NWA pilot by 1 to 6% of their prior relative seniority. DOH will show you losing 7%. It is clear that both sides are starting at the extremes.

Looks like negotiations 101 so far.

Carl
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Old 10-07-2008, 05:03 PM   #46  
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You guys at the top have nothing to worry about. 1 or 2 or 5% is not going to kick you out of your seat. The real action is at the bottom. Our MEC proposal protects our (DAL) expectation of not being furloughed because the 9s get retired and replaced by Compass.
Complete nonsense. You have no such expectations, and no more DC-9's are being retired than the ones announced a long time ago.

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The post bankruptcy business plans presented in the first two days of hearings were most enlightening. One side was planning for growth and one side for contraction. The bottom of the list looks just about right.
You must have just listened to the DAL side and none of the NWA side rebuttals.

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Here's hoping that the combined company is as powerful and as vibrant as planned and hoped for so everyone rises.
Agreed.

Carl
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Old 10-07-2008, 06:36 PM   #47  
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FWIW--Whatever stance you take, ALL hires After 2001 (2002 and on) should have been DOH. I think it is crazy that the most junior pilot at DAL jumps ahead of pilots hired DEC 2000 at NWA. That is not even close to reasonable. How can you tell me that DAL would not have furloughed or parked more planes. I hope the panel has more common sense then the person that put this list together.
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Old 10-07-2008, 06:44 PM   #48  
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How so? We hired over 9% of our list in the last year. You have not. Talk about a bump.
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Old 10-07-2008, 06:59 PM   #49  
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FWIW--Whatever stance you take, ALL hires After 2001 (2002 and on) should have been DOH. I think it is crazy that the most junior pilot at DAL jumps ahead of pilots hired DEC 2000 at NWA. That is not even close to reasonable. How can you tell me that DAL would not have furloughed or parked more planes. I hope the panel has more common sense then the person that put this list together.
They do AV8ER, I really think they do. All 3 are very experienced judges. DAL's proposed list is the same methodology used with Pan Am and Western Airlines. Both were on the verge of liquidation, and DAL agreed to ratio these pilots into the seats of aircraft they brought to the merger at the expense of decades of Date of Hire. Given the state of their airlines being days away from liquidation, these pilots were probably grateful to have any job.

NWA is different; to wit:

NWA has a higher market capitalization than DAL, even though NWA is 2/3 the size of DAL.

NWA had higher earnings last quarter than DAL, and will have again this quarter soon to be announced.

NWA has an equal amount of unrestricted cash to that of DAL even though we are 2/3 the size of DAL.

And finally, our fleet mix is very comparable.

For these reasons, it would be historic in arbitrations if they were to agree on such a lopsided proposal. Just remember, if the DAL guys did NOT start with such an extreme proposal, their members would want their heads.

This is just early round negotiations. Inside, the arbitrators are probably just smiling and shaking their heads - just as they will after they hear our proposal.

Let not your heart be troubled.

Carl
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Old 10-07-2008, 07:01 PM   #50  
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How so? We hired over 9% of our list in the last year. You have not. Talk about a bump.
Trust me ACL, if the roles were reversed, you would see the unjustification of this immediately. You wouldn't need ask anyone: "how so?"

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