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Old 10-06-2008, 10:18 PM   #11  
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Originally Posted by Rudder View Post
Carl,

You have said in the past that you are around 500 on the list at NWA, are you red or green? If red, could you be holding your present category if all those ahead of you who wanted to be in your seat bid for it?

To make the blanket statement that a 767-400 is senior to you is jading the facts because we have 149 767-400 Captains that are senior to the most junior 777 Captain. The most senior 767-400 Captain is number 9 on our list. The distribution is not straight down the stovepipe. These two categories and the 767ER captains are mixed together simply because of what people bid. I got this off our Oct list, so look it up.

From reading the transcripts, I think that our side gathered all of our intl. captains and ratioed them against yours. So to state that 777 and 767-400 are set against 747 is false, at least if I am reading it right. It sounded like to me that we were counting our 777, 767-400, and 767ER/75 Intl. and we ratioed them against your 747-400, 747-200, A-330, and 757Intl (15% of total). If I am reading this wrong then I apologize, but that's the impression it left me with. The methodology was simply to ratio the amount of international captain positions against yours, and work down the list in the same manner.

I am a LAX 73Capt who has not posted here much because of all the needless arguing both our groups have done, so am trying to stick with numerical facts. I do not claim to like or dislike what our negotiators or yours have done and it is out of our hands now so do NOT want to simply argue for the hell of it. would like to see more factual exchanges across our lines as I think it will help later on.

I hear some of your side say we should be able to keep our seats but then they say DOH. Well, a LOT of us won't keep our seats under that scenario and your side thinks that's fair?

Would like to hear back from you because I have read your posts and you seem to try to be factual. I would also like to know from your side what you think is the future of the 9's and the freighters? I do NOT want these to go away and am not asking for that reason, just want to know from someone who has been there awhile that's all.

Hopefully the beers are plentiful and fights few after this is all over.

Cheers!!
There would be no bump and flush so you wouldnt lose your seat. fwiw
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Old 10-06-2008, 10:40 PM   #12  
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There would be no bump and flush so you wouldnt lose your seat. fwiw
Super,

You just got a PM.

Last edited by newKnow; 10-06-2008 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:01 AM   #13  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudder View Post
Carl,

You have said in the past that you are around 500 on the list at NWA, are you red or green? If red, could you be holding your present category if all those ahead of you who wanted to be in your seat bid for it?

To make the blanket statement that a 767-400 is senior to you is jading the facts because we have 149 767-400 Captains that are senior to the most junior 777 Captain. The most senior 767-400 Captain is number 9 on our list. The distribution is not straight down the stovepipe. These two categories and the 767ER captains are mixed together simply because of what people bid. I got this off our Oct list, so look it up.

From reading the transcripts, I think that our side gathered all of our intl. captains and ratioed them against yours. So to state that 777 and 767-400 are set against 747 is false, at least if I am reading it right. It sounded like to me that we were counting our 777, 767-400, and 767ER/75 Intl. and we ratioed them against your 747-400, 747-200, A-330, and 757Intl (15% of total). If I am reading this wrong then I apologize, but that's the impression it left me with. The methodology was simply to ratio the amount of international captain positions against yours, and work down the list in the same manner.

I am a LAX 73Capt who has not posted here much because of all the needless arguing both our groups have done, so am trying to stick with numerical facts. I do not claim to like or dislike what our negotiators or yours have done and it is out of our hands now so do NOT want to simply argue for the hell of it. would like to see more factual exchanges across our lines as I think it will help later on.

I hear some of your side say we should be able to keep our seats but then they say DOH. Well, a LOT of us won't keep our seats under that scenario and your side thinks that's fair?

Would like to hear back from you because I have read your posts and you seem to try to be factual. I would also like to know from your side what you think is the future of the 9's and the freighters? I do NOT want these to go away and am not asking for that reason, just want to know from someone who has been there awhile that's all.

Hopefully the beers are plentiful and fights few after this is all over.

Cheers!!
Rudder,

If everyone senior to me at NWA bid the 747, I would not be able to hold the position.

My understanding was that DAL's proposal would be a ratio based on seat position and pay. With that in mind, I don't think the 767 belongs in with the 777 and 747. It should have been ratioed in with the A330 in order to not skew the ratio in a disproportionate manner, IMO. As far as senior people being on top of a lesser paying aircraft, it all evens out with people who bid for the max position they can hold even though they're junior.

I agree with you that straight DOH would not be fair. Just as this ratio would not be fair, although the conditions and restrictions do help protect people for a while. I'm sure our DOH proposal will contain similar protections against base loss and job loss.

I wouldn't mind having 1987 guys on top of me so much if there weren't so many of them that are younger than me. At NWA my retirement number would have been low double digits. Now there will be hundreds of pilots senior to me that are younger. That's the rub because even though your proposed list looks balanced now, over the next decade or so, the top of the list will be mostly DAL. If our DOH list happens, I'm guessing there will be similar inequities favoring NWA.

As far as the DC-9 and 747 freighters go, who knows. But my sense is that this credit crisis is real, and that it's not going away anytime soon. The aircraft that we both have on order may be undeliverable if the new Delta cannot obtain financing. This is happening at a time when oil is back below $90 per barrel again. This makes the DC-9 a perfect choice to bring out of the desert, because they cost nothing to obtain and the fuel cost differential is smaller.

Sorry for that lengthy post. Sheesh!

Carl
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:07 AM   #14  
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not to mention 1999 hires behind 2007 newbies at Delta. what a joke!!
Yes. I was just looking at what the ratio did to me, but it gets far worse at the bottom 25%.

As I've said earlier, those DAL pilots that are extremely concerned about the DAL side having started negotiations in the middle ground...don't have anything to worry about. This position is every bit as extreme as a DOH list.

Carl
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Old 10-07-2008, 12:43 AM   #15  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
As far as the DC-9 and 747 freighters go, who knows. But my sense is that this credit crisis is real, and that it's not going away anytime soon. The aircraft that we both have on order may be undeliverable if the new Delta cannot obtain financing. This is happening at a time when oil is back below $90 per barrel again. This makes the DC-9 a perfect choice to bring out of the desert, because they cost nothing to obtain and the fuel cost differential is smaller.
Carl
The last I heard, all of the DAL orders already had financing in place per Ed.
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:16 AM   #16  
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One you are assuming that everyone senior to you would bid off the 777. Wrong assumption.

Two, I would be put in with the late 99 hires, at about the same percentage. I shows me that I will hold the day after DCC what I will hold today. Nothing more nothing less. I think this list will prove that. Who knows what will pass, but it is a good attempt for the DAL guys.
You guys are up next. I am sure we will be pi$$ing at your proposal as well. Nov 20 we all get to know the final answer.
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:17 AM   #17  
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The current ones are. Options are not.
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Old 10-07-2008, 04:36 AM   #18  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler View Post
My understanding was that DAL's proposal would be a ratio based on seat position and pay. With that in mind, I don't think the 767 belongs in with the 777 and 747. It should have been ratioed in with the A330 in order to not skew the ratio in a disproportionate manner, IMO. As far as senior people being on top of a lesser paying aircraft, it all evens out with people who bid for the max position they can hold even though they're junior.
Carl,

Did not the DAL proposal group according to gauge, and that ratioed all of our international captain positions against yours? On page 689 of the transcripts I see the 777's, 767-400, and 76/75 Intl on our side grouped against your 747-400, 747-200, A-330, and your 75Intl.
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Old 10-07-2008, 05:38 AM   #19  
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Looked up my seniority based on the DAL proposal and looks like I would move down about 4% overall seniority.......
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Old 10-07-2008, 06:10 AM   #20  
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To start off, Im a Delta 2001 hire. With this proposal, my relative seniority is identical to what it is right now.

It is my understanding that this list is DALPA's OPENER. Based on that, this list shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone. Im sure the NWA opener will be weighted towards DOH.

I understand that some NWA guys have lost on the relative seniority front on this list. Seeing that the bottom group is all NWA, Im wondering if that hasn't been accounted for in another part of the list. I find it stange that the bottom is all NWA, yet my relative seniority hasn't changed. Make sense?

It is everyone's natural inclination to look at themselves in this situation. If we look at past mergers, often we see one end of the list taking care of itself only to sacrifice the other end. I guess we'll see.

This list is far from the finished product. I will be shocked if this doesn't end in an arbitrated list.
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