Delta's Proposed Seniority List
10-17-2008, 02:22 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
The DC-9-50 has 125 seats and the 737-700 has 124. However the -700 uses almost half as much fuel as the -50 and it has a range almost 4 times greater. The DC-9 is not in the same league as a 737-700. The 737-700 can go coast to coast and deep into South America. The DC-9-50 can't get too far away from a hub before it runs out of gas. The closest comparison is to an EMB-195 which holds 110 pax but has 2.5 times the range of a DC-9.
out of curiousity what is the 88's range vs. the 9's?
10-17-2008, 02:39 PM
#32
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
because the airplane doesn't fly as far and burns more gas is a pretty weak argument as to why it shouldn't be considered comparable. performance wise sure but not pay or seniority.
out of curiousity what is the 88's range vs. the 9's?
out of curiousity what is the 88's range vs. the 9's?
See its size in comparison in one argument and aircraft performance in another. Generally they seem to use whichever argument best fits the discussion at hand.
LOL Just poking sticks are you DAL guys. The arbitrators will decide one way or the other and NOTHING we say on this or any other forum is going to change that. I am looking forward to getting this behind us.
10-17-2008, 02:40 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Delta pilots worry about the nines because we have already been there and done that. In the last few years Delta retired two complete fleets of aircraft in this size range without a single replacement aircraft. One fleet was comparable in economy to the nine but newer airframes. The other fleet was much better on economy and again much newer airframes. With that as a background when management in lounge shows states every time the nines are going away we listen. When they say they will going away in question and answer sessions you have to give some creedence to the fact they just might go away!!! In fact not only might they go away they are going away as we speak. NWA had 160 of them just a few years ago. There will be 61 or 62 by the end of Dec. Not one of them has been replaced at NWA. I doubt the last 60 will be replaced when they leave. Delta management has no interest in this segment of the market and it appears NWA management did not either or they would have replaced at least some of the 100 that have left. The only aircraft we have coming in that size range is the 737-700 and they were purchased specifically for long haul very thin routes mostly to SA. They are not intended as a 100 seat replacement.
Everyone at Delta knows what replaced are 737-200's and then the 300's. We know what has replaced the 100 nines that will have left NWA's fleet by the end of this quarter. Sadly neiter Delta or NWA pilots are flying those replacements. What Delta pilots don't want is to go though more furloughs when the nines go away after we already went through it twice.
Everyone at Delta knows what replaced are 737-200's and then the 300's. We know what has replaced the 100 nines that will have left NWA's fleet by the end of this quarter. Sadly neiter Delta or NWA pilots are flying those replacements. What Delta pilots don't want is to go though more furloughs when the nines go away after we already went through it twice.
10-17-2008, 02:57 PM
#34
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Pay and productivity mainly. There is a also a bit of historical precedent thrown onto the mix.
The DC-9s are a special case. There is widespread consensus (among Delta pilots anyway) that those aircraft are obsolete and destined for the boneyard in the very near future. The NWA pilots of course disagree and maintain that many of the DC-9s are still serviceable plus they are paid for and therefore they will be flown for many years to come. This is a very important issue because the fate of the most junior pilots on the list hangs in the balance. If the economy slows dramatically and the DC-9s are parked, there is likely to be furloughs. Junior Delta pilots don't want to be the victims of NWA fleet reductions.
The arbitrators will have to make that call.
The DC-9s are a special case. There is widespread consensus (among Delta pilots anyway) that those aircraft are obsolete and destined for the boneyard in the very near future. The NWA pilots of course disagree and maintain that many of the DC-9s are still serviceable plus they are paid for and therefore they will be flown for many years to come. This is a very important issue because the fate of the most junior pilots on the list hangs in the balance. If the economy slows dramatically and the DC-9s are parked, there is likely to be furloughs. Junior Delta pilots don't want to be the victims of NWA fleet reductions.
The arbitrators will have to make that call.
1. It will be because credit is still tight/non-existent.
2. Continuing tight credit will keep the economy is recession.
3. Tight credit will make the financing of new airframes impossible.
4. The US economy in recession will keep the downward pressure on oil.
5. All of the above will not only require keeping the DC-9's, but bringing back every one that we've parked.
Slow economy = low oil prices = DC-9's kept
Economic recovery = high oil prices = DC-9's phased out.
Place your bets......
Carl
10-17-2008, 03:00 PM
#35
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
We will have credit when we need it. Trust me.
Those nines are short timers.
Those nines are short timers.
Carl
10-17-2008, 03:35 PM
#36
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Not mine but others that know a lot more than you or I do.
It is not my opinion whatsoever.
Boeing will make sure that we have the credit we need to purchase airplanes. They need to sell them, and will help us purchase them. Kind of like GMAC.
It is not my opinion whatsoever.
Boeing will make sure that we have the credit we need to purchase airplanes. They need to sell them, and will help us purchase them. Kind of like GMAC.
10-17-2008, 04:25 PM
#37
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
were the dc9 captain slots put after the md88 fo's or were they the last captain slots in the stove pipe?.
The FOs were the special case. Its not the captains who are in danger of furlough. They can always bid other equipment when the 9s go away. The FOs might not get that option.
That's why DALPA is trying so hard to protect the bottom 10% of our list. It would be fundamentally unfair to furlough Delta pilots because a bunch of NWA airplanes suddenly get retired.
10-17-2008, 06:18 PM
#39
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by Check Essential
The captains were slotted in with Delta 88 captains.
The FOs were the special case. Its not the captains who are in danger of furlough. They can always bid other equipment when the 9s go away. The FOs might not get that option.
That's why DALPA is trying so hard to protect the bottom 10% of our list. It would be fundamentally unfair to furlough Delta pilots because a bunch of NWA airplanes suddenly get retired.
The FOs were the special case. Its not the captains who are in danger of furlough. They can always bid other equipment when the 9s go away. The FOs might not get that option.
That's why DALPA is trying so hard to protect the bottom 10% of our list. It would be fundamentally unfair to furlough Delta pilots because a bunch of NWA airplanes suddenly get retired.
We'll see
10-17-2008, 06:38 PM
#40
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
If the economy slows dramatically:
1. It will be because credit is still tight/non-existent.
2. Continuing tight credit will keep the economy is recession.
3. Tight credit will make the financing of new airframes impossible.
4. The US economy in recession will keep the downward pressure on oil.
5. All of the above will not only require keeping the DC-9's, but bringing back every one that we've parked.
Slow economy = low oil prices = DC-9's kept
Economic recovery = high oil prices = DC-9's phased out.
Place your bets......
Carl
1. It will be because credit is still tight/non-existent.
2. Continuing tight credit will keep the economy is recession.
3. Tight credit will make the financing of new airframes impossible.
4. The US economy in recession will keep the downward pressure on oil.
5. All of the above will not only require keeping the DC-9's, but bringing back every one that we've parked.
Slow economy = low oil prices = DC-9's kept
Economic recovery = high oil prices = DC-9's phased out.
Place your bets......
Carl
Carl,
I agree that as the price of oil goes down the DC-9's become more viable - good for all of us. I disagree with your credit argument for the following reasons:
*DAL recently secured another $1 Billion line of credit.
*Boeing is going to have to self finance its sales if the credit markets dry up.
*NW is chock full of unrestricted cash as you guys have been telling us for the last 6 months.
I wholeheartedly agree with the "place your bets" mentality - who knows what next year will look like?
Scoop
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