wiggy

Yes - on the surface that does look extreme. But the proposed 10 year fence that goes along with that means that none of those 1470 positions given to NWA will be useable by any NWA pilot at the expense of any DAL pilot. Why? Because every one of those 1470 NWA pilots will be gone by then...me included.
Pure, unadulterated bullsh!t, Carl, and you know it...those 1470 NW pilots include up to your 31 DEC 1985 hires. DAL has 210 pilots hired 1981 and prior, that leaves #211 and all subsequent hired in Sept. 1985 or later. Under your proposal, in 10 years, a conservative estimate would have 500 to 800 NW pilots,(and ONLY NW pilots) at the top of the list, when the fences come down. Sound fair to you? (NW hired approx. 800 between 1981 and Sept. 1985.)

Cogf16

Fences again!!! Carl, can you guys live with relative position, you know, if you are 20% at NWA you would be 20% +/- maybe 1 % at the new Delta? The devil is in the details with several variables
-NWA's more near term retirements
-NWA's near term aircraft retirements (freighters and possibly more 9's)
-Delta's fleet growth 777LR and 737-700's
-Delta's more "mid" term retirements
-Delta's higher % of widebody/intl aircraft
These things would have to be taken into account but they seem to maybe somewhat offset each other. I will tell you most Delta guys think that relative position is a pretty big win for NWA. Can't you see the fairness possible in this simple concept?

Cog

Carl Spackler

During the testimony, NWA did a presentation of the top thousand guys in the DAL proposal - Delta guys in blue font, and Northwest guys in red font. They used age 62 as the average age that a guy will be gone either by choice or medically. Then they moved the chart forward in one year increments. As every year went by, the top thousand guys changed from a mix of blue and red colors, to a sea of blue colors only at the 10 year point. In my opinion, that is a devastating blow to the concept of fair and equitable. There was an opportunity to mitigate that with a fence, but DAL did not do that. The 5 year fence proposal does nothing but make the inequities far worse and in perpetuity.

How could we take advantage of it if the vast majority of us are gone?

Actually, due to our pension, we will lose money if we stay past 60. Everyone will have 25 years in because the rules allow for you to continue accruing time toward 25 years. Also, the higher health care costs only apply if we retire before age 60.

The bottom 402 being NWA is incomprehensible. Again 28% of our guys being in the top 16% is meaningless because we'll be gone by the time we could ever exercise that seniority at the expense of any Delta pilot.

I'm guessing you mean NWA pilots. I have my doubts too. Because the NWA pilots see virtually no down side in taking this to arbitration. Negotiations aimed at taking the extreme DAL proposal and changing it along the margins will still make it very extreme. Thus arbitration carries little risk to NWA guys. But if you think that DAL might come off their respective stance and negotiate a change to the NWA Date of Hire proposal, maybe there would be an incentive to avoid arbitration.

Hope the beer was really cold!

Carl

Carl Spackler

The facts don't support you Wiggy. Pure and simple. The testimony showed this clearly.

Carl

wiggy

Oh, I assure you, Carl, the NWA proposal is extreme for the DAL guys at the top and in the middle....

Carl Spackler

Yes fences. You know, like the 5 year fences proposed by DALPA

I think that would probably sell. But not minus 7 to 9% as happens in parts of the DAL proposal.

True

Pure speculation on your part and many other DAL guys.

Pure speculation...especially in this economy.

True

True

They might offset if they were all true.

I actually do if that is what DALPA proposed. Instead it is relative position minus 2% for me and minus 9% for NWA guys near the bottom. It's not plus anything for any NWA guy.

Carl

Denny Crane

Carl,

First of all the important stuff!! I'm currently at my favorite hangout and the beer is just fine, as usual!!!!!

I guess we will disagree on what we consider a "vast majority." My understanding of a hard frozen pension plan is that no one can accrue further benefits and to qualify for the benefits earned, you need to get the full 25 years of service. Hence the 1985 hires will not have a full 25 years of accrued benefit and are more likely to stay until 65 to get more DC and healthcare benefits via medicare.

I disagree with your premise that your top 28 percent of guys will be gone within 10 years for the above stated reasons.

As far as either side coming off its position, take that statement for what I said. I wasn't suggesting anything. I just don't think either side is going to come off their basic premise and that is going to force an arbitrated list. As you stated with the NW pilots seeing no down side, so do the DL pilots see no down side. I can take your same arguments and give them back to you from my side.

Well my battery is about to run out cause I'm long winded and so, again, I'll say good luck to us all!!!

Denny

wiggy

So Carl, you're claiming as a fact every NW pilot hired prior to 31 Dec. 1985 will be retired in 10 years? --because the blue and red charts and "clear" testimony and the magic # 62.4 says so? I wouldn't call those "facts" Carl, I would call those "speculations".

Carl Spackler

The pension is exactly what I have stated to you Denny. in 2010, all 1985 guys will have 25 years in because they continue to accrue years toward their 25 even though the benefit is frozen. That was one good caveat we got just prior to bankruptcy.

Good luck to us all and to you Mr. Crane!

Carl

Carl Spackler

I figured you would Wiggy.

Carl