Cycle Pilot

You're comparing a 300 hour military pilot to a 300 hour civilian pilot? What are you smoking? I don't even know how to respond to that statement! And sure, blame the checkairman... I'm sure it was their fault the guys didn't make it through training.

Did you ever look up the Valujet crash?

TheBills

He is talking about military training vs. 300 hour airline pilot training programs, which train you like the airline would, like Mesa Pilot Development does. I will say this too, Of the people that graduated MAPD and went to ground school at Mesa, more people failed out of the sim and ground school that were flight instructors than MAPD grads (300 hour wonders), that is fact.

I think training programs like MAPD are good programs, and are not bad for the industry. They just need to maintain there ability to be strict on applicants and not just let anybody in, which there was a time where they didn't. The problem is with schools like ATP, where in 6 months you get all your ratings, we all know that you cant comprehend what your learning for all your ratings in 6 months. MAPD was a 2 year program, and you ate, drank, slept aviation, and you had to know your crap. Not only that you weren't just given the job, your performance in the program reflected on your interview.

rickair7777

That would be expected, since the MAPD grads had been studying the airplane systems for two years and had significant sim time. That is not the best measure of pilot quality.

Mesa only cared about getting folks through training...meat-in-the-seat. Whether they had any experience, judgement, or command ability once they got on line was not really a concern.

Some MAPD grads had ZERO logged time in actual IMC when they started flying the line. The only Wx down in FMN was CB's...

Hot Rod Wannabe

Your hourly argument is oscar meyer buddy. Did the pilots in Tenery(sp) Island have more or less than 1000 hours? How about the Pinacle accidents? How about Cali Colombia? Hours do make more experience, but hours alone don't make you a safe pilot! When I graduated basic rotary wing at mother rucker, I didn't have 300 hours and was a commercial rotary wing pilot. Military does the same thing and you need to know what you are taking about when it comes to the MAPD program. Whoever said they had significant sim hours was not telling the truth, FTD CRJ time at MAPD might be twenty hours and it is only a FTD and not a Class D. So stick to what you know.... pull out the USAToday and get reading.....

NoStep

I bet! Same airports, same weather, twice as many legs per day, no auto-throttles/auto-brakes/leading-edge lift, and vastly different pay.

NoStep

...and you don't have to have an ATP for that, either!

rickair7777

That was me. Yes, it is an FTD not full-motion but I was explaining why they have a good pass rate during mesa new-hire training...they know where all the buttons are and they know how the glass works. 20 hours is plenty significant for familiarization purposes.

captjns

Why... is flying a DC-9 for NWA/Delta any different than flying a DC-9 for any other carrier, or another airplane without auththrottle, GPS, non-RVSM equipped...

Help me out here... do you feel that flying a DC-9 endows one with special skill? Are they a cut above the rest of the pilots?

TheBills

Is being able to enter a hold, being able to recite call outs at appropriate times, knowing emergency action items a measure of pilot quality. Items that I just stated were of many reasons that pilots at MAPD and pilots off the street failed out of the sim, more so off the street believe it or not. My only argument here is that just cause you are an instructor means you have different experience, it does not mean that you are more qualified than someone who devotes 2 years of their life to really learning to fly an airplane under the 121 environment. I also dont think that I am an amazing pilot cause I went through that program, even though im sure it may sound that way. Airlines that hired 300 hour FBO pilots is a completely different story, that was/is a problem.

Cycle Pilot

Oscar Meyer? What the heck does that mean? Of course, pilots with more than 1000 hours are going to get into accidents, too. We're talking about accident rates here. Bringing up the Pinnacle accident is not helping your argument. Those pilots stalled an RJ at 41000 feet which flamed out both engines... again... basic flying 101 skills. Not to mention, they were acting completely unprofessional during the flight. Switching seats and pulling up quickly after takeoff to mention a couple. Have you read the NTSB report on that accident? The F.O. was new and in the right seat of an RJ while the airplane stalled. Not once did he speak up.

You are right, though, in one point. Hours alone does not make you a safe pilot. It's about quality hours and I believe that going through a "puppy pilot mill" is not building quality hours. You're missing that foundation you get while flight instructing and flying single pilot IFR. Somebody mentioned above, that guys coming out of your FMN school had zero IMC. That's just scary!