Mesa Terminates Pilot Training Program (FMN)
12-15-2009 | 01:37 PM
#71
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From: Bob's Big Boy Front Office Staffer
He is talking about military training vs. 300 hour airline pilot training programs, which train you like the airline would, like Mesa Pilot Development does. I will say this too, Of the people that graduated MAPD and went to ground school at Mesa, more people failed out of the sim and ground school that were flight instructors than MAPD grads (300 hour wonders), that is fact.
I think training programs like MAPD are good programs, and are not bad for the industry. They just need to maintain there ability to be strict on applicants and not just let anybody in, which there was a time where they didn't. The problem is with schools like ATP, where in 6 months you get all your ratings, we all know that you cant comprehend what your learning for all your ratings in 6 months. MAPD was a 2 year program, and you ate, drank, slept aviation, and you had to know your crap. Not only that you weren't just given the job, your performance in the program reflected on your interview.
I think training programs like MAPD are good programs, and are not bad for the industry. They just need to maintain there ability to be strict on applicants and not just let anybody in, which there was a time where they didn't. The problem is with schools like ATP, where in 6 months you get all your ratings, we all know that you cant comprehend what your learning for all your ratings in 6 months. MAPD was a 2 year program, and you ate, drank, slept aviation, and you had to know your crap. Not only that you weren't just given the job, your performance in the program reflected on your interview.
or they had to have an aweful lot of money to blow. Not to mention there were pluses to the program but negatives as well. I flew with a lot of poor pilots from there as well. ie. guys who knew nothing about green needles.. and several who knew nothing in general. They learned real quick...Honestly a good concept though and realistically not a bad route to take. i'd say ornstein ran it all into the dirt..
12-15-2009 | 01:49 PM
#72
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Joined: Jul 2008
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Why... is flying a DC-9 for NWA/Delta any different than flying a DC-9 for any other carrier, or another airplane without auththrottle, GPS, non-RVSM equipped...
Help me out here... do you feel that flying a DC-9 endows one with special skill? Are they a cut above the rest of the pilots?
Help me out here... do you feel that flying a DC-9 endows one with special skill? Are they a cut above the rest of the pilots?
12-15-2009 | 07:00 PM
#75
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Banker....UGH!
Oscar Meyer? What the heck does that mean? Of course, pilots with more than 1000 hours are going to get into accidents, too. We're talking about accident rates here. Bringing up the Pinnacle accident is not helping your argument. Those pilots stalled an RJ at 41000 feet which flamed out both engines... again... basic flying 101 skills. Not to mention, they were acting completely unprofessional during the flight. Switching seats and pulling up quickly after takeoff to mention a couple. Have you read the NTSB report on that accident? The F.O. was new and in the right seat of an RJ while the airplane stalled. Not once did he speak up.
You are right, though, in one point. Hours alone does not make you a safe pilot. It's about quality hours and I believe that going through a "puppy pilot mill" is not building quality hours. You're missing that foundation you get while flight instructing and flying single pilot IFR. Somebody mentioned above, that guys coming out of your FMN school had zero IMC. That's just scary!
You are right, though, in one point. Hours alone does not make you a safe pilot. It's about quality hours and I believe that going through a "puppy pilot mill" is not building quality hours. You're missing that foundation you get while flight instructing and flying single pilot IFR. Somebody mentioned above, that guys coming out of your FMN school had zero IMC. That's just scary!
! And as for Pinnacle you are missing the point again. We are probably arguing our points in similar fashion, but with opposite vectors. Pinnacle as you mentioned is a prime example that hours don't make the pilot. Professionalism and risk management are great tools for any pilot. And the younger generation are getting more than the older generation. And yes IFR in the southwest is very rare for new pilots and as for accident rates why would you bring up the most dangerous part of flying.... Single pilot IFR kills even the most experienced of pilots. It is the highest accident rate for pilots of all skills period. I for one have enough experience that I wouldn't be afraid to fly single pilot IFR, but my minimums are much higher because of the single pilot enviornment. It is too easy to get over loaded on go arounds and that is the begining of the end of even the best of pilots. So I prefer not to fly Single Pilot IFR if at all possible. And honestly, in 121 carrier training how many times do you fly the sim down to mins and then go missed... Yea it is scary to do it for the first time in a jet with 50-80 people behind you. But if trained appropreiately, it is a none event! I have personally never had to go missed, but flying an ILS to mins is my favorite approach. Nothing compares! Almost nothing
12-16-2009 | 10:19 PM
#76
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Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Airbus
jo you were such a great business leader that really cared about the employees. at no point did you put yourself or selfish businesses practices first.
and for that.... your stock is hovering at eleven cents. you dont deserve that! you deserve more, with an outsourced underpaid labor force like yours!
and for that.... your stock is hovering at eleven cents. you dont deserve that! you deserve more, with an outsourced underpaid labor force like yours!
12-16-2009 | 10:22 PM
#77
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From: Airbus
Oscar Meyer Bologna! And as for Pinnacle you are missing the point again. We are probably arguing our points in similar fashion, but with opposite vectors. Pinnacle as you mentioned is a prime example that hours don't make the pilot. Professionalism and risk management are great tools for any pilot. And the younger generation are getting more than the older generation. And yes IFR in the southwest is very rare for new pilots and as for accident rates why would you bring up the most dangerous part of flying.... Single pilot IFR kills even the most experienced of pilots. It is the highest accident rate for pilots of all skills period. I for one have enough experience that I wouldn't be afraid to fly single pilot IFR, but my minimums are much higher because of the single pilot enviornment. It is too easy to get over loaded on go arounds and that is the begining of the end of even the best of pilots. So I prefer not to fly Single Pilot IFR if at all possible. And honestly, in 121 carrier training how many times do you fly the sim down to mins and then go missed... Yea it is scary to do it for the first time in a jet with 50-80 people behind you. But if trained appropreiately, it is a none event! I have personally never had to go missed, but flying an ILS to mins is my favorite approach. Nothing compares! Almost nothing
! And as for Pinnacle you are missing the point again. We are probably arguing our points in similar fashion, but with opposite vectors. Pinnacle as you mentioned is a prime example that hours don't make the pilot. Professionalism and risk management are great tools for any pilot. And the younger generation are getting more than the older generation. And yes IFR in the southwest is very rare for new pilots and as for accident rates why would you bring up the most dangerous part of flying.... Single pilot IFR kills even the most experienced of pilots. It is the highest accident rate for pilots of all skills period. I for one have enough experience that I wouldn't be afraid to fly single pilot IFR, but my minimums are much higher because of the single pilot enviornment. It is too easy to get over loaded on go arounds and that is the begining of the end of even the best of pilots. So I prefer not to fly Single Pilot IFR if at all possible. And honestly, in 121 carrier training how many times do you fly the sim down to mins and then go missed... Yea it is scary to do it for the first time in a jet with 50-80 people behind you. But if trained appropreiately, it is a none event! I have personally never had to go missed, but flying an ILS to mins is my favorite approach. Nothing compares! Almost nothingnothing replaces experience, especially people like you
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