Airport reserve isn't a RAP. Short call or long call is. Airport reserve is flight duty. If you are on airport reserve prior to a flight segment, it counts as FDP. If you are on short call reserve prior to a flight segment, it does NOT count as FDP. If you fly a leg and are placed on airport reserve, then are subsequently scheduled to fly a leg, you must count all time spent in airport reserve as duty and cannot accept the assignment if you will exceed your FDP.

I just remembered something from a clarification I received: Here's where it gets really vague. If you are scheduled for airport reserve and pick up a trip at the 10 hour mark, assuming you start at 0600, you will only have 2 hours of duty remaining and the entire 12 hour period counts toward your cumulative for 168. If you are not scheduled to fly, the x hours you spent on reserve does not count toward FDP cumulative limits.

In the example above, you're correct in that it wouldn't technically be FDP until midnight. However, if you are assigned at 2200, all of it would count as FDP and need to be considered. It's no different if you are scheduled to deadhead at the very end of your legal FDP.

The moral of the story is, it is a legal assignment and no 10 hour rest is required prior to being assigned it.

 

CBreezy--you're right about ready rsv not being a RAP (per the definitions section). I think our main sticking point is when an FDP ends, and when airport/standby reserve is considered part of the same FDP.

My position is that an FDP ends when the brake is set with no intention of further ac movement, and that airport/standby rsv is only part of the same FDP when it occurs before or in between flight segments.

My position is backed up by explicit language in the statute andFAA Clarification letters, yours is based on assumption.

We'll find out who is right soon enough.

 

CBreezy--how is there intent of further aircraft movement by the same crewmember sitting in a crewroom until midnight after the last Mesa flight has left the airport for the night?

Mesa is doing that! People are sitting airport rsv with no flights on their schedule and THERE ARE NO MESA PLANES TO FLY.

How would you explain that to a POI? How would you explain you have any anticipation of further aircraft movement when all flights have left and none are scheduled inbound?

 

I win with the last thing I posted--just saying.

 

You've presented nothing other than one reference from 117. I'd be happy to entertain any clarification letters you say you are using.

Under your assumption, because it is an assumption, when you start airport reserve and are subsequently assigned flying, it is illegal. You did not receive your requiste 10 hour rest prior because you reported for duty without any intention of aircraft movement and left your rest status as required by the company.

When your RAP or Airport Reserve begins, you have an intention of aircraft movement as assigned by the company. For the former, you are limited to 14 hours of reserve availability and for airport reserve, you are limited to time calculated in Table B.

 

Man, I love this discussion. We are just waiting for the equivalent of the Whitlow letter. To those of you using this site to try to determine which subcontratcor to accept, note that it is this company that will push it to the limit and say grieve it now because they know it will never cost them that much.
P.S. I am LAMA

 

Technically, because you are still on duty, they are permitted to add a reposition flight to your schedule as long as it fits within your duty time. There is nothing illegal about that. Or they could deadhead you to an overnight at 2359. There is nothing about keeping you on duty if there is no flying to do. It is actually to the company's detriment to do so because they could put you to a min rest and put you back on airport reserve or short call the next day. Keeping you there is not in violation of any regulation. It isn't a lot of fun, I agree. That would be a contractual thing and not a rest issue.

 

Someone needs to get some clarification. This is typical Mesa, until someone fines them or the FAA comes down on them they won't stop if they are in the wrong. So far Cbreezy seams correct but I'm very interested with Flaps argument that RRSV must be assigned before or in the middle of a flight segment but not after. What he is saying if there is no other flight segment scheduled your done. Even though airport/standby is considered a FDP and not a RAP. Now Mesa has bent the rules in the past, so someone needs to find out something. I will try to contact someone in the FAA on Monday or Tues after my shift.

 

Cbreezy, is your real name V.V? (My mesa friends know who I'm talking about)

 

Nooooooooooo. They can't "keep you on duty if there is no flying to do." That is not a "contractual thing and not a rest issue." If they assigned you flying, and you finish your last segment with no further flying assigned, the FDP ends per Federal statute at that time. You and Mesa management (who I'm beginning to suspect are one and the same) can code it however you want on some poor guy's schedule, but an FDP ends when it ends--which is defined by a Federal law. It doesn't end when you say it does. Your opinion doesn't matter--a law says when it ends.

CBreezy read the definitions section again--airport/standby reserve is only part of an FDP if it occurs BEFORE or BETWEEN flight segements (or if no flight segments are assigned). ONCE flying has been assigned to anyone--lineholder/reserve/whatever--EVERY FDP ends when the plane is in the chocks with no intention of further aircraft movement by the same crewmember (a.k.a. no more flight segments or aircraft repositionings on your schedule when you block in).

Otherwise they would've written the word AFTER in the statutory definition of an FDP, no? Where is the word AFTER? I don't see it there CBreezy--that's because it isn't, and because of that glaring fact, once they fly you--your FDP always ends when the brake is set if no further flying has been assigned.

The only time an FDP ends at a pre-determined release time is when you're sitting airport/standby reserve with no flying assigned, in which case there is no anticipation of further aircraft movement to abide by, since you haven't actually flown/moved an aircraft.

You're attempting to read a Federal statute from a perspective of "how can I read this to support my point?" I get that--I catch myself doing that also from time to time. However, when interpreting the construction of statutory language, one must pay very close attention to logical statements such as if, before, between. You aren't doing that--you aren't respecting the word if or the conditional words before & between and that can burn you in a courtroom, a regulatory proceeding, or a contract negotiation!

117.3 definitions section:

Flight Duty Period "means a period that begins when a flightcrew member is required to report for duty with the intention of conducting a flight, a series of flights, or positioning or ferrying flights, and ends when the aircraft is parked after the last flight and there is no intention for further aircraft movement by the same flightcrew member. A flight duty period includes the duties performed by the flightcrew member on behalf of the certificate holder that occur before a flight segment or between flight segments without a required intervening rest period. Examples of tasks that are part of the flight duty period include deadhead transportation, training conducted in an aircraft or flight simulator, and airport/standby reserve, if the above tasks occur before a flight segment or between flight segments without an intervening required rest period."