Out of curiosity, though I'm sure to be flamed by the more sensitive types on this board, just when did this cult of self-adoration within the fighter pilot community start? My granddad was a fighter pilot in WWII and his career lasted until about 1970 I think. He was humble, modest, and definitely not the frat boy type. My dad was a fighter pilot in the '80s, and he wasn't so much all of the above. Neither was my brother in the late 90's up until now, but lately he's starting to grow out of it. So, I'm thinking sometime around the 1960's? I'm all for having fun, and God knows I've had my share of debauchery, but I did it because it was a lot of fun to drink, smoke, gamble, break stuff, and all that jazz. Not because I felt entitled to it or believed that no one else but me and mine had a license to do it.
And before anyone gets all SNAPish on me, I'm asking this as an honest question. I'm just wondering when the culture changed from a job to the lifestyle it has grown into today. Just when was the image of the modern day "Fighter Pilot" created? You don't see SEALs, Green Berets, or CCT folks talking about themselves the way the modern fighter community does.

 

I can't tell if you are asking a sidebar question, aside from the issue of the Navy guy's name, or if you think your question is somehow related to the Navy guy's name.

Your grandfather may have had a certain personality that you don't equate to your current opinion of the fighter world, but don't for a minute think that the "fighter pilot culture" is not rooted all the way back to WW1 and WW2. It is. And I think if you read some history, attitudes haven't changed much since then, so I'm not totally sure what you're getting at.

I'm not sure where you figure that fighter guys believe they alone have license to "drink, smoke, gamble, break stuff, and all that jazz." They do it for the same reasons you do/did it.

I certainly know all about the stereotypes that heavy pilots generally have for fighter pilots. But I think if you would look closely at your own community, you'd see plenty of the "frat boy" antics that you blame on fighter guys a bit closer to home as well. You just generally carry on in smaller groups (crews) vs fighter squadrons which generally travel together as a squadron. There are certain somewhat formal traditions in fighter squadrons (roll calls, namings, etc) that heavy squadrons don't have, but the antics are the same. I also think that if you'd ask non-rated folks within the Air Force what they thought of pilots in general, their description of fighter/non-fighter guys alike would be pretty similar to what you are placing on fighter guys alone....arrogance, debauchery, etc.

 

Fair enough, I see your point.

 

Frequent many SEAL (McPs for instance), Green Beret, or CCT hangouts or (and I use this term loosely) - professional forums?

Don't worry Deuce. There are all types in every community - even all models of the C-130 community. I've know quite a few in my years.

USMCFLYR

 

From what I have noticed, most of the fighter pilot stereotypes has been perpetuated by PC shoe clerks, heavy pilots or worse yet, B-coursers who THINK they need to act a certain way. Actually the most frat boyish/arrogant attitudes I ever experienced was from UPT instructors...talk about holier than thou attitudes!


Have you spent much time with them? I think every time I ended up in a bar with SEALs, one of them ended up in a fight/jail. Went through survival with quite a few CCT guys and, by the time we left, we all knew how "great" they were. But in all honesty, those dudes were all great and have earned it....they are true warriors in my mind.

 

--Rudyard Kipling

 

In three words:

Yes he has

 

Not much experience here at all....but the guys from my unit are just humble, down to earth, all-around cool - and enjoy what they do.

 

I think I do have that one one of my tapes. It's with the same video that shows the A-7 pilot filming his rejoin through the gunsight, right up to the impact.

 

USMCFLYER,

I browse all the forums on APC. I'm not now, never will be, nor ever have been a rated military aviator. Am I welcome to post in this area when some point of discussion interests me?

Assuming I am, I read the article you started this topic with and thought, that's pretty stupid on everybody's part. Complaining about the handle and filing suit looks to me like this guy's retirement plan. The guys who planted it on him sure seemed to have low SA to not be aware(or care) that their target 1) might not like it, 2) have any effective countermeasure.

After reading everyone's responses to that point, I was surprised that the consensus was its such a shame that we can't get away with anything we want anymore and that the rules of society don't apply to us because we're warriors and 'they' just don't understand what we go through.

Well I do know something about warrior culture, and what I was reading didn't really sound like it. It sounded like Frat culture. I fully expect every combat pilot to think he is absolutely invincible in the air. I also expect him to be smart enough to recognize he is not incapable of faults elsewhere. There has been almost zero recognition that somebody stepped on their **** here. When it ends up in the newspaper, then you look bad. Game over - you lost.

As for the super awesome comment, yeah it was snarky and could have been better put. The life expectancy of a Spitfire pilot in 1940 was 4 weeks. The average B-17 crew survived just 14 missions, including the period in which the Luftwaffe was no longer effective. As close as I can tell 13 US tactical aircraft were lost in the Iraqi theater 2003-2009, with a loss of 9 souls. You risk your lives every time you strap the jet to your back, but you don't honestly expect to die. Seventy years ago, they really didn't expect to come back. The US Army casualty rate is awfully hard to find, but the British are taking about 10% KIA/WIA in their infantry units. My point being, there is a lot of talk about the need to blow off steam after being involved in combat, but other groups, and your own group in other times, seem to have coped with a bit more decorum, even when faced much harsher conditions.

Who's smarter, your average grunt, or your average fighter pilot? I remember helping drag my squad leader out of a Ft. Walton bar after he got into a 'discussion' with some Specter guys about who was harder - something about "So you were a Ranger? That's too bad, cause if you're not Specter you're not *******". They were obviously wrong. But it was also obviously their bar, in their town. Nobody ever got their name in the paper, and nobody's CO ever heard about it either. Because there never was anything to hear about. That's not to say that your average leg is too smart to get into a bar fight. But we aren't Officers and Gentlemen. And I do think you should be smarter than us.

"Unless you've ever been in a combat flying squadron, then you will never understand what namings are about. They aren't about insults, they are about acceptance."

As UAL phlyer pointed out they're also about exclusion. And yeah, everybody gets that, because its not very subtle. (Even if they don't get that it can be a positive motivator.) I said in both my previous posts, that I don't know if I'm right. But I'm not wrong that you look bad. It really doesn't affect me one way or another if you find any value in what I write. But if you're too arrogant to even consider an outsider's opinion, well why are you even reading this?