You will have to show me where I ever said that you were not allowed to share your thoughts on any forum on APC. Saying that you don't understand the culture certainly isn't the same thing as saying that you aren't allowed to post. Now another user asked why you came to the military forum in the first place. Maybe this part of your response was directed at that person?

Care would probably be more accurate. Those are fairly common/standard names that get thrown out at alot of Callsign Reviews and others are obviously spefific to this guy's love of the Cowboys. I remember someone walking into the det ready room once and seeing the list of names on the board for our students and saying that there were quite a few 'non-PC' words up there. Yep. It is part of what you go through. Of course come to find out - in today's view - we were all tortured at the hands of the government too when we went to SERE school, but I don't I'll ever see a dime of the money owed me from that traumatic experience

Yes - strike fighter TTPs have evolved to the point that the training is more dangerous than the combat.
And how many Civil War soldiers died in a single day at any number of battles? Or maybe how many Roman Legionaires died in the Battle of Teutoburg Forest? So were the warriors of the greatest generation still not proud warriors?

It is often said that the best strike fighter pilots are the ones with 'Underwater Basket Weaving' degrees and not the aeronautical or mechanical engineering degrees because they are usually ruled by black and white and (right side brain people?) and flying is a much bigger picture, things are always changing, must be flexible type of environment and left brain people are better able to adapt with those changes. I don't believe any of it. I think there are smart pilots and not so smart pilots and in my time working with Grunts I've run across both kinds of people in 03 community of both types as well.

Do you think that you are the first to ever bring this up? It has been considered over and over robthree and each time found to usually have some hidden agenda or former hurt feelings behind the curtain. EVERY special group of people get targeted by those that wish they were part of it and aren't. Even back in Middle School when that kid didn't make the Junior Varsiety football team then all of the sudden all of those kids that did were "stupid doo-doo heads".

Every one can have their opinions robthree, but if their opinion is found to be off base then you can expect it to be challenged.
What is it that I read on these boards all the time when the 'traveling public' has the opinion that pilot's are all over paid for the easy job of watching the computer that they do? How many times have I read that they just don't understand what it takes to get to where 'we' are and how uninformed they are and they will never get it because they don't understand the business?

USMCFLYR

 

I'll assume that was because I asked what exactly you were doing here. Gimme a break robthree. You didn't come on this thread to get involved in the discussion or air your opinion. Let's review how your first post started, shall we:

"A bunch of meat heads sitting around making up derogatory names for each other or a drunken, x-rated party at the O'club doesn't sound like a 'professional' or 'warrior' culture to me. What it sounds like is a Frat house."

Don't revise history here dude. Your intent posting in this thread wasn't to say "gee guys, that seemed a little unprofessional." Your goal was to throw a jab. Pure and simple.

"Rules of society don't apply to us"...I don't even know what to say to that man. You are so out to lunch on this subject I don't know what to say. I don't think you understand what a naming ceremony really is. It's not an official military ceremony. It's usually in a bar or a ready room. And it's meant to be fun. I think if you sat in one, then you'd get it. So because they gave a guy an (completely unofficial, by the way) nickname that a) he didn't like and b) included the B word, then suddenly the "rules of society don't apply?" I think you've made a giant leap to get from point A to point B there.

As for "the consensus was it's such a shame that we can't get away with anything we want"...GMAFB. No it wasn't. No one ever said anyone should be able to get away with anything they want. What dudes are saying is: "why is the entire world suddenly in our business because these guys gave a dude an unofficial nickname in accordance with our tradition and heritage?" The dudes are saying that this whole thing got blown completely out of proportion because this oversensitive ensign doesn't get what really happened at his naming. IG investigations, people fired, careers ended. Serious consequences. All over an unofficial nickname. All pretty absurd, really.

They gave him a callsign dude. That's it. From that you launched straight into the "unprofessional meathead" rant and decided to take jabs instead of try and understand any context. Don't expect to be welcomed by the crowd into a conversation in the military aviation forum with an act like that.

 

Co-sign. Well stated, Tbone! Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Probably won't surprise you, robthree, that I will provide a "third" to T-bone and BDGERJMN's posts.

Thanks, for your appreciation of my skills, and I really mean that. Likewise, I have an appreciation for your service, even though I have not walked in your boots.

I don't think anyone on here buys your "I'm just speaking from a stance of intellectual curiosity, and in the spirit of debate - not judging" line of defense, or rather offense. You clearly walked into the room wanting to throw some egg in our faces, and then couldn't imagine why it was not well received. And, though you demonstrated a deft use of the copy/paste and quote feature on this forum, I'm confident that the intelligent readers in this section don't see a bunch of quotes pasted together, out of context and chronologically juxtaposed, as a sound argument any sooner than they believe a picture of Osama Bin Laden photo-shopped on the front page of the Enquirer shaking hands with president Obama. It's "cute," but not much more.

One virtue of our professional combat aviators, that you may not know - having never witnessed a flight debrief, is that we call-out our own bull-**** first, as a matter of pride. A great aviator always calls out his own errors before they are pointed out by others. If he doesn't, it makes it look like he didn't even realize the error, which is poor SA, and that is the worst trait in an aviator. If you really are such an astute browser of all forums, then you have observed the harsh criticism we have when one of our own screws up - especially while airborne. And so, if any one of us believed that giving this guy a callsign, or the particular callsign he was given, or giving callsigns at all was wrong - you can be assured we would be the first to point it out. But, we don't. None of us here thinks it wrong, and your attempts (from name-calling to advanced cutting and pasting) to convince us otherwise have been unsuccessful.

Mostly though, you seem to feel validated that because we have looked bad in the media, then we were wrong. "Game over" right? I guess your argument would look something like

You guys looked bad in the media, therefore, what you did was wrong.

I'm not so sure this holds water dude. In fact, it's a pretty dumb argument if you think about it. I'll even grant you that I recognize the importance of the public's perception of our military. But it is not the end-all-be-all to how we decide to operate. Thank God for that. Really though, you give the media that much credence, really?? I just don't think anybody here is ready to abandon 40+ years of tradition solely for better press coverage and public perception. Maybe if we thought we had screwed up, but I already covered that.

 

Sadly, that is where you are mistaken. Media brownie points (or demerits, in this case) are what it's all about anymore.

With two wars on, Iran and North Korea entering the nuke club, and a host of other global security issues knocking at our door, DoD should have more important things to worry themselves over than aviators' callsigns.

But no...

Mink (retired Naval Aviator)

 

With our media being an intellegence resource for other countries, I would think our leadership would want these non-friendly countries to think our front line fighters are a bunch of caged animals waiting to be loosed on a quarry.

I really get tired of other people trying to tell me how I should behave.

 

C'mon now. What do you think you're there to do? Kill people and break things?

While the answer may be "yes" (I certainly think it is!), these days you are expected to do so while being genteel.

Good luck with that.

 

I indeed do know what I'm there to do and what my job is.

Perhaps being "genteel" is just a matter of perspective.

 

Let's look at this from the bad guy's point of view. Being shot down by "Viper" sounds a lot more manly than being flamed by "Purple Pansy".

Just a thought.

Very interesting thread.

 

I'm thinking of rolling over to the 11B forums and telling them how [messed] up and idiotic their traditions are.

You know, just as an outsider's perspective looking in.