I might be missing something, but how are you doing single pilot IFR if you are below the 135 IFR PIC mins?

"pay to play" = RETARDED!! you shouldn't pay to go to work..

If you are paying money to Sit in the right seat.. SHAME on YOU,

PAY your DUES get the time and experience any other way than paying to play...

PLAY is something I do on my days off and usually involves spending the money I EARNED by being a PROFESSIONAL PILOT. The only situations where "pay to play" is appropriate is a buy in at the poker table and an certain bars in Thailand.

He might be flying that 310 on his own dime, single pilot.

I agree, "pay to play" is retarded. Go split time in a C172 with your buddies or go fly pipelines.

I agree that paying for a flying job is ridiculous. Especially a SIC job which even if they did pay you would not be much. But right now I would take a pipeline job if there was one.

Ok, I'll bite. I know it's unpopular to support the FO program, go bash Gulfstream, Vision, or some other program where they're actually paying for a job they otherwise would be unqualified for.

Amerflight's program is pretty much an unpaid internship. Your payment is the experience, and if you leave the program unprepared for your next job (believe it or not, most FOs don't end up at Ameriflight), it's your own fault.

Freightdog, I've got to disagree. My FOs get a lot more out of flying with me than they would splitting time in a C172. If you hate FOs, it's your choice not to fly with them. It's my opinion that you should give them their money's worth and work them hard.

BTW, I have an FO who wants to know where he can find a piplelne job with 300 hours. Any ideas?

Own nav,

I'm not arguing with you that there are some "pay to play" FOs that are really good out there. I have had some good ones and some bad ones. The bad experiences I have had with them stem from their attitude of "you do know I'm paying for this right?" I've had FOs refuse to help load cargo, not have appropriate charts and ask to borrow mine, etc. If the Company would create our own in house FO program then we could stop having to take the EJI pilots and have a better "filter" in training. Some of the most fun I had was splitting time in a C172, BE36, Seneca, etc.

On the pipeline jobs, I've seen some ads on Pilot Jobs, Aviation Jobs, Aviation Employment, Career Fairs, Job Fairs for pipeline patrol in West Texas. I couldn't tell you the name of the company, but a quick google search would probably turn up some results.

Are you based in SLC?

Thanks Freightdog, I'll pass on the info to my FO, and yes I'm SLC based (we have met).

I'll admit, I've seen some bad FO's, they don't progress in their career for good reason. Seriously, if anyone's arguing that people are "buying" their careers, I strongly disagree. For the most part, the slackers stagnate in their attempts to get a job (regionals, AMF, or anywhere). The ones with a good attitude, unfortunately, have to deal with the "PFT" label/stereotype.

It's not just about the career opportunities either. I'm a firm believer that your first few encounters with hard IFR shouldn't be as the sole occupant of the aircraft (or with someone just as inexperienced as you are). Idaho in the winter is great for exposing my FOs to hard IFR.

Hey would anyone know the chances of getting hired with AmeriFlight with 1153 total time. I left my solid job at American Eagle for a "better" job with Republic and now find myself on streets and looking for work cursing the day I thought it would be a good idea to quit Eagle. Should I start looking for someone to split time with or is it a soft min?

You need 1200TT for 135 IFR mins, but I have seen ads for 1180...guess you could get the last 20 during training? Join the club, seems like a lot of people are trying to get on with Ameriflight right now...myself included...

Haha yeah i think there is a club just about anywhere there is an open pilot job. Its funny how this job can beat you down and we just keep coming back.

Just want to clear a few things up since I kinda got a woopin' after my last post. I was asking about the "pay to play" thing because I thought I read about ameriflight doing some kind of program like that and just wanted more details. I understand that these programs are frowned upon, and most likely would never do one myself. Just trying to do some research.

And someone questioned why I was flying single pilot IFR in a 310. I'm doing it part 91. Since I have my multi engine and instrument rating I believe this is legal.

Sorry again for stirring the pot about paying to fly. I'm broke anyway so this wouldn't be an option for me

No worries

But yes sir, that's a very sensitive issue. Its frowned upon because we're desperately trying to save our profesion (salary wise). So when young guys in need of some multi or turbine time offer to fly for free or even pay to get a job, well its like taking one step forward, two steps back.... The other thing is when a single guy offers to fly for free, then the guy after him has a family and he needs to get paid, but now can't because his predecesor did it for free. You screw yourself out of pay, and you screw the guy who takes your place when you leave.

I'm not talking about you at all, just letting you know why its a very sensitive issue.

Again, this applies to Gulfstream, Vision and other airlines where you pay for an actual job, and yes, I agree, these are unethical arrangements.

If no one pays for the AMF FO program, on the other hand, we fly single pilot without them. No one is losing their jobs because of this program. The seat just goes empty.

I don't mean to bash anyone, but I've seen these anti-PFT arguments go overboard to the point of it becoming a stereotypical witch hunt.

Believe me, I agree with you on several points. No one's wallet should determine their career sucess. I just don't think AMFs program deserves to be lumped in with the controversy.

And here's another thing, don't tell me that CFI's aren't guilty of PFTing. They paid for their training, and often work for the very place they paid. In fact, when I went to school, my school threatened that if we didn't do all our certs and ratings with them, they wouldn't hire us. They were good to their word, and I had to instruct elsewhere. Yet no one is "at their door with pitchforks" or bashing them on internet forums.

"Vision and other airlines where you pay for an actual job, and yes, I agree, these are unethical arrangements."

Just a quick FYI. Vision is no longer pay to play. The April 25th 2008 class was paid 18.00 per flight hour with an 80 hour Gaurantee. (Do228) (of course the whole class is furloughed right now....crossing my fingers for a call back soon)

I'm not convinced that they've "changed their ways." Some airlines were hiring 300 hour pilots up until that point, it was a market condition, not a change of heart. If they go the next few years without returning to their previous ways, I'll be glad to be proven wrong.

That's awesome. Ya after I posted it I thought of that sorry.

I had no idea Amflight had a FO program.

That's the whole reason why I posted in the first place. Just wondering if there is any kind of FO program that they use to hire those that are very close to 135 mins. Something along the lines of AirNets SIC program (for the 135 hourly challenged individuals). If any current or former employees could shed some light on this subject that would be awesome. Do you actually pay to build time in the right seat or is it an unpaid internship. I might be able to stomach not being paid for a month or two if it meant a guaranteed job after I hit 1200.

Lemme have it...

WOW.... I thought it was bad when I was working for Republic and was only pulling down 1100 a month after tax... but to work for FREE!?!?! You say you’re flying right now. Why not just stay there a bit until you have the time? Being a pilot used to be a respectable career... I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
I guess the only saving grace would be what own_nav said “If no one pays for the AMF FO program, on the other hand, we fly single pilot without them. No one is losing their jobs because of this program. The seat just goes empty.” So its either single pilot or pilot with free automatic gear swinger. :-)

I'm not trying to lower any standards. For myself or anyone else. Just wanted to know if a brief internship as an FO at AMF might lead to a full time position. I am flying right now, not the greatest job in the world but it's better than unemployment. However, if I had to sacrifice a month or two without pay in order to secure a long term position with Ameriflight, and as own nav stated I wouldnt be causing someone else to lose their job, you bet I'd do it in a heartbeat. The short term sacrifice would be well worth it, plus I'm not hurting anyone else. It also helps that my ol' lady makes enough for both of us. In the end though it probably won't matter, I'll hit the 135 mins in a few months with my current job and then be able to apply at other companies as well.

Does anyone at AMF know if there is a class that starts monday? I called Sylvia the other day to check on my application status and she said no classes until March 9. Then the other day I heard of a guy getting an interview and another that starts class on monday??

It could mean after this class no classes until March 9.

For better or for worse, AMF does have a pay to play program, and several of those FOs that did well over the years have been offered positions within the company. They know you, they like you, they need a pilot, you're hired. Of course it costs $10,000 (+) to have that happen. It's operated as a turbine time-building training program. I don't think that they have an internship situation when they are making money off these things. I'm not judging the people who are willing to do this, or the company for doing it, I'm just saying that there is a program in place.

Wow that's crazy. Wish I had $10K. Not to spend on flying but just to have it. I will keep my crappy job till I break 135 mins and wait till some more companies start hiring. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

If you're looking to get AMF to notice you, I know many pilots have been dispatchers, parts clerks and line service people while they were building toward minimums. In the end, it's the same effect, if they like you, you'll get right in for a pilot interview when you meet minimums.

I know that there are many out there that do not approve of people paying for time, but I would like to offer this up for your consideration. Many of you did pay to build time in a twin (Seminole/Duchess), there are many pilots out there that do not have an MEI and have built their required multi time by renting. So what is the difference between paying to gain experience in a twin turbine or paying to fly a Seminole around? I used to disapprove of "first officer" programs, until I flew with one. She was very professional, and demonstrated excellent airmanship, when she had completed her time, we hired her into a Brasilia. I believe that she is now a Captain at Republic. This young woman knew that she did not want to instruct, and she felt that she could better herself professionally through a 'first officer' program, and she was correct. She personally changed my opinion about these programs. I think in the right environment these programs can be excellent as they teach young pilots how things work in the real world. Lets face it, instructors out there are just baby pilots themselves, and have no idea how 135 or 121 operators actually do it in the real world. Just remember what you get out of an experience is what you put into an experience.

Yes, people pay to rent a plane to build twin time. Most people build their twin time that way, including myself before getting hired on a 121 carrier. What we didn't do is pay to fly right seat on a revenue flight, which is what AMF program does. The cargo is there because someone is paying for it to be moved around. And you think its ok for someone to also pay to fly that cargo around? If the company wants a warm body in the right seat they should pay for it. Making money off the flightdeck with additional revenue from the cargo/passenger compartment is ethically wrong and not good for the profession at all. I'm sure there are good pilots that enter this lame program. But your missing the point, its PFT plain and simple. This argument is old...

I'm not sure everyone understands the Amflight program. First of all, it's not an Amflight program, it's Eagle Jet International. EJI pays Amflight a fee for the right seaters and the Amflight PIC's get a small pay override. The right seaters are NOT required crewmembers, and can be bumped for freight.

You can question the value of the time, or even the FAA "loophole" that allows it to be logged, but it's not the same PFT/PFJ that Gulfstream is doing.

In my view, if you're not a required crewmember, then you're not taking anyones job.

That's interesting. So would you apply for that program through Ameriflight or EJI? Who should I contact for more info on the program?

Explain to me how this belongs here?:confused:

That is the company Amflight associates with for the first officer program.

Wow, almost 19G's to be placed in a pool that you MAY get hired from for AE??? hahaha...

EJI = Eagle Jet International, a question was asked an answer was given.

What, were you assuming that I was just putting some random PFT program on here?

Depending on your total time and multi time you might try getting on as a FO on a Brasila. Instead of paying out money you would make money.

what about 820 tt with 35 multi can that put me as a FO on the brasilia?
thanks

There aren't any brasilia FO positions posted on the company website right now (at least not for external hiring), but you never know when one might come up, particularly if it's in a location that's hard to fill internally. Ameriflight

I'm not sure about those times, but I'd doubt it given current conditions (my own personal opinion, get that multi time up).

I have 1700TT with 670 Multi and 260 Turbo-prop,(all PIC) Part.135 freight experience. Sent out countless resume's and nothing but the standard computer response's. Although Airnet did call me last year and Pinnacle before that. But nothing in the last 6 months. Maybe my resume doesn't pop out,not sure.

Good thing there are still noble pilots like you around... After all, you bought your multi time and then accepted a low paying regional FO job. Everyone should do it that way. :rolleyes:

I didn't say it was noble to build my twin time by splitting it with someone. But its still better than paying 19G's to a company for an interview. But in hindsight getting my MEI would've been easier and cheaper. Things we do when we don't know better. oh well live and learn.