Phantom Flyer

Maybe I'm missing something in this thread, but there is one (1) Pilot-in-command and one second-in-command (SIC) in a 14 CFR Part 121/135 Air Carrier operation. The Captain signs the dispatch release and is designated as "the" PIC. Period. Both pilots can be typed, in fact, with Relief Pilots/"Bunkies"/Augmented Crews in Part 121, perhaps everyone is typed. There is only one person logging PIC and one person logging SIC in the computerized records no matter who is manipulating and fondling the controls. Again, I'm not a sea lawyer but have been around long enough to know how most people in air carrier operations think. I also understand that this thread is under "135", but as far as logging time, I don't think there is any difference.

As for interviews, the "SIC Type" is worthless in my view. If one has gone through a full blown FAA type rating, that's great and will certainly be of benefit when interviewing even if you're not exercising the priviledges.

Please don't lock & load...I'm just the piano player...

G'Day Mates

tflyer70

Phantom, you are correct, or at least by mine and it looks like others on this thread.

I think we have established that the SIC type rating for all intensive purposes is worthless in terms of logging PIC. Hence, thats why they call it an S.I.C rating. But if someone wants to log PIC time under the aircraft they only hold an SIC type rating for..then whatever. Its all on them for any questions that may arise from that practice.

As for two pilots that are both type rated, then it gets pushed more into a gray area. However as I stated before, if a company really wants to dig--and it would not be that hard---all they have to do is match up what you put on an application for time in type, recency of experience, etc., and match it to what your past FAA records indicate. Some companies type their second in commands, normally due to lower insurance premiums. But here's the kicker: The employer will have access to PRIA records of all applicants which will show past check rides, type rides, etc. If a company has an applicant that has a citation II type rating and has been logging PIC time, then it can be cross checked with the 135.297 (PIC Instrument prof.) and 135.299 (PIC: Line check routes/airports). If there are no records of either for the last 12 months, then it could be assumed that although they are type rated, they were not serving in the capacity of a Pilot In Command for such company.

If both are type rated, have PIC authorizations, and have current and valid 135.297's and .299's, then I guess its up to the individual how they want to log the time.

But in the end, each individual is responsible for their own books and how they want to record it.

My best friend is an FAA operations inspector out of ORD, and I will check with him on the FAA's interpretation.

Phantom Flyer

tflyer70:

BINGO ! I think that we agree and your statement "each individual is responsible for their own books and how they want to record it" is right on.

After having been an "interviewer" in a previous life, I can tell you that we did exactly what you stated. We checked and checked and checked .....everything and a lot of aspiring pilots' resumes got trashed because of what appeared to be forged or at least, inaccurate log books. Yes, a pilot can log all the PIC time he or she wants but with computerized records, PRIA records, etc. it's not hard to spot inconsistencies and there goes the application BAM !

Besides, when I was interviewing, I put the most stock in trying to get to know the individual and determine if I wanted to sit in a cockpit with that individual for 8 hours and then go out for dinner and a cold one. You know, the old "comfort factor". The logbooks and application had to mesh but it's how a person fits in rather than how many hours of PIC time they claim.

Just my 0.01235 cents.....after deflation

G'day Mate

timeless

That is what I tell typed SICs when they ask why they can't log PIC when they're flying.

Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

Phantom Flyer

I can't figure that out either. There is only one Pilot-In-Command who logs "PIC" time and one Second-In-Command who logs "SIC" time. It's that simple.

When I go fly a trip for proficiency, and I'm sitting in the right seat, I log SIC time even though I'm a type-rated Captain and Check Airman in the aircraft. The pilot sitting in the left seat signed the dispatch release and is the designated Pilot-In-Command. He logs PIC time and I log SIC time. Not too hard to figure out. Why others can't comprehend it is way beyond me.

Just my two cents...devalued to 0.008012 cents on today's market

G'Day Mate

NoyGonnaDoIt

I guess that the problem is that, according to the FAA, "logging" PIC time has nothing to do with "being" the PIC.

The Part 135 PIC who logs PIC while his SIC is doing the flying is falsifying his logbook from an FAA standpoint. A lot of people seem to have a lot of trouble understanding that concept.

flyboyjake

ok, I think its an axiom that we are all accountable for our logbooks, and that an SIC type rating doesnt allow the holder to "ACT" as PIC, however its immaterial how someone "wants" to log something in their book. Whats more relevant is what the FAA allows us to log in our book, and that is the initial question. Evidently John Lynch and his staff didnt anticipate the "unintended consequences" of placing an SIC type on a certificate, and agrees that it is a matter that will require some further work, but the fundamental difference of acting and logging still appears to confuse some...

noygonnadoit, an ATP rated pilot may LOG all time as PIC when requiring the use of his ATP, so when the SIC is flying, they can both log PIC so long as they are both rated...however, there are situations when flying cargo in a falcon for example, the captain need only have a commercial, at which point if the co pilot is flying, the captain may not log PIC, only act it.

I know many of you are convinced the SIC is a mean nothing rating, and for the most part, it is...but its on the certificate now, and thats the underlying point to this arguement. Its obviously not an open shut case, which is why I poseted it...to stir it up a bit.

NoyGonnaDoIt

Quite correct. I used a Part 135 as an example in the belief that there are not 135 ops that require an ATP. Your response indicates that there are. Can you point them out for me? Thanks.

tflyer70

So is this something that you are trying to do Jake? Or just an off the top of your head question. Mark, my FAA bud was out of the office yesterday, but I should be able to get a hold of him today. And just to be clear, and I will shorten it down:

Can a person who does not hold an actual type rating that was accomplished via a practical exam (Airline, Flight Safety, Simuflite, etc), log Pilot in Command time while only holding a Second in Command certificate? Let me know if this is the root question.

I will post the results later I talk with Mark.

Avroman

Yes an ATP is required if there are more than 9 seats or is a turbo jet. So a Jetstream or Caravan with 12 seats or a Learjet with 8 both require the PIC to have an ATP. Now if the plane is operated freight only then that is different.