Conclusion: Flow Blow(s), SAP too

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08-16-2018, 07:04 AM

#11

bscott58d

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Joined APC: Jul 2018

Position: FO

Posts: 93

Pilot group at PSA is great, I’ve not had a bad experience yet. Reserve life and scheduling shenanigans are why I submitted my resignation. Grass may not be greener where I’m going (YX) but they certainly won’t be any worse IMO.
Some eenjoy PSA and that’s great, just want the place for me.

08-16-2018, 07:06 AM

#12

tlamjaj

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Joined APC: May 2018

Posts: 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Making it Count

P.s. one guy doesn’t fill a class anyway. Unless they are enormous. And yes I get Sept. may be full, I was just being facetious.

Well aware, but these threads have been popping up for awhile, and I just wanted to point out that, as many others have stated, there really is no reason for the company to change things if they are filling classes with the current pay rates and benefits...and as of last week, they are still filling classes. Lowering each class to a max of 24-25 I think helps with that as well. I didn't come to PSA for the pay, I didn't come here for SAP, I didn't come here for a flow to AA...and I do think you are starting to see a trend in that direction. My class was made up of a bunch of RTP guys, a few cadets, and then some others who wanted an Ohio or Tennessee or DC base.

08-16-2018, 07:20 AM

#13

nkweb

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Joined APC: Apr 2017

Posts: 120

Do not, I repeat do not come to PSA. There are way better options out there and moving or commuting would be worth it. The trips and pay are terrible at PSA. A lot of new and naive potential airline pilots do not understand how the pay structure works at these airlines. The soft pay, reserve rules, commuting policies, hourly rate, min days, duty rigs, all make a massive difference between companies. Endeavor is in a league of its own and second would be Republic which has another pretty good contract. I can speak from experience.

I highly recommend learning more about how these pilot contracts work and looking at the differences among these airlines. If you get stuck at a regional for awhile, you need to make as much money as you can with the best QOL. Pilots need to stand together and not accept subpar working conditions and pay.

08-16-2018, 07:53 AM

#14

Making it Count

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Joined APC: Jan 2018

Posts: 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by tlamjaj

My class was made up of a bunch of RTP guys, a few cadets, and then some others who wanted an Ohio or Tennessee or DC base.

This is actually very insightful and I am glad you shared this. If this is the case in every class then PSA is not going to change anything. Which means the only ones who could possibly move PSA to better things will be the pilot group itself somehow.

08-16-2018, 08:00 AM

#15

tlamjaj

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Joined APC: May 2018

Posts: 117

Quote:

Originally Posted by Making it Count

I don't have any numbers, but based on what I've seen, the number of cadets has skyrocketed, so PSA will have a steady number of pilots coming per class that are locked in a year out. I assume the number of RTP candidates will also remain fairly steady...and then you'll always have those pilots who want those bases (DAY was very popular in my class for some reason, mainly of those who live out of state). I think if PSA continues to cater to those three groups, they won't have any need to raise pay, etc, and will not have problems filling the classes. They really can't compete with the Endeavor/Republic contract, and I don't think they try to anymore. Instead, they can cater to college students, give them $5,000 untaxed while they're instructing to lock them in for a year, and they'll continue to have FOs.

08-16-2018, 09:18 AM

#16

rickshaw

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Joined APC: Jul 2012

Posts: 154

Generally speaking RTP guys generally won't be CA material at 1000 hrs. way back when...2500 hrs was a pretty good target for UPG. I challenge these guys to not to waste their 1000 hrs. coasting in R seat while the CA wonders what surprise they have to clean up next. Its asking too much of these individuals with little or no XC, IMC, ATC experience, marginal flying skills at best... to think they'll have the tools to make good informed decisions in a 121 environment is nieve. I start my day looking at headlines hoping PSA isn't in one.

08-16-2018, 10:24 AM

#17

captande

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Joined APC: Dec 2017

Posts: 658

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickshaw

Okay, I’m gonna start by saying that we all pass the same training curriculum, with the same standards set by the FAA. So to crap all over these guys with a blanket statement like yours is ignorant. Yes some do struggle because of a lack of exposure to the things you mentioned. But to say they have marginal flying skills is ridiculous. It’s quite the learning curve to go from a helo to a jet, so do they struggle? Of course, we all did a little (except for maybe you, based upon your statements). Law of primacy, and from what I’ve heard is the army guys primary training is in the helo.

You have some good points, but you could put it in a better way than to degrade these men and women. They deserve better than that.

08-16-2018, 10:42 AM

#18

Swakid8

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Joined APC: Apr 2015

Posts: 2,427

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickshaw

That's low if you man, no offense. Remember, you too was a zero 121 time pilot as well. It's was a learning curve for all of us coming into the 121 world. Any FO coming in should not waste their 1000 hours coasting.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

08-16-2018, 11:32 AM

#19

rickshaw

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Joined APC: Jul 2012

Posts: 154

youre right. These guys are a good bunch. It's easy to get bent on a bad day and vent. In much more reasonable terms, I'd just encourage everyone to work at being a better pilot. It's the persistent challenge that keeps us all interested in the endeavor. again apologies to present and future RTP's. A riding ride lifts all ships so we should always work to make it a better place.

08-17-2018, 05:28 PM

#20

Duck Sausage

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Joined APC: Sep 2016

Posts: 155

Quote:

Originally Posted by Making it Count

So, after much deleberation what was once a huge recruiting tool, the flow and SAP, is a non-factor. I am typing this so hopefully the people similar to my position of soon choosing a regional to apply to can see where it doesn’t do much for a new hire at all (at PSA) in this hiring climate. At least I hope it gets you thinking and maybe it will help the current pilots that are getting shafted at PSA right now by drying up the hiring a bit so they can have some leverage. If I’m totally off on this (current PSA pilots) let me know but I truly do care when I see my pilot peers getting the raw end of the deal. Hopefully this doesn’t hose my chances of possibly coming their in the future either but I have counted to cost if so.

If you live in a jr PSA base then try to go to PSA if not then don’t. Exception for RTP guys. I live near two jr bases so it’s still a good choice for me.

If you haven’t read how bad SAP is right now just know it’s nothing to be banking your QOL on and do some research. Hopefully that changes but time will tell. PBS may be coming as well which screws SAP tremendously.

Flow at PSA is pretty much worthless, for the most part, as of now. And it could be at the other wholly owned regionals as well but I don’t know their flow numbers. I’ll explain later in the post.

The possible reasons to go to PSA for flow

1. If AA is your absolute and ultimate place to work the flow matters because it gaurantees it. That’s the only scenario flow has its unshakable positive but I still feel it’s not as great of a factor given future hiring outlooks at AA.

2. If you don’t have a bachelors it might matter (I think this will change to a no factor in the near future but we will see). But get one to up your chances. I know I am.

3. If you have skeletons it may matter (I am betting it doesn’t though). Full disclosure, I have four checkride busts between getting my heli and fixed wing ratings through CFI/II and I’m still betting on myself to get to a Legacy or LCC without the flow. Yes I messed up, yes I learned , yes I will study hard, yes I will pass everything from now on, yes I will establish a long and clean 121 record, no I’m not giving up being a pilot. I didn’t not study or not take it seriously. It happened but it’s not stopping me. It may make life tougher. For those of you with squeaky clean records thus far you’re golden and flow is definitely not needed.

So the flow has an absolute best case scenario of getting you to AA in about 7 years if stars align which probably isn’t going to happen. Worst case 12+. Assuming it’s best case scenario it’s still just about worthless. If AA stops hiring flow stops, congrats it’s worthless. In these times if AA stops hiring something massively terrible has happened and you aren’t going to get hired at any Legacy or LCC anyway so now you are stuck at a regional that has been mistreating their pilots (forced upgrades and displaced without the pay for it) and is not keeping their word (reserve rules and SAP degradation) and pay is substandard (soft pay sucks as well). This is happening now, in a climate when they need pilots to come their, imagine when they have the upper . Bonuses are a sham that overall helps the company more than the pilots. It needs to be in base pay to help pilots in all the ranks of the company. That goes for all regionals.

If you do your part I feel like you will make it to a LCC, legacy, cargo of choice in the ~5 years timeframe or less as long as the hiring train keeps rolling. If the hiring train stops you still don’t want to be at PSA based on previously mentioned reasons. You want to be at the regional that pays well as you are going to be their a while.

This is solely based on you not screwing yourself by doing something stupid or having training failures at the 121 level.

Just the way I see it but think about it and do your research. Heck everything could change tomorrow.

There, their, they’re.