Originally Posted by GliderCFI

600 hours is a lot different than 200. I'm not saying I'm "deserving of a jet" or anything, but I just cleared 600 hours last month and I've been instructing in one way or another for a year and a half now, and I know I'm a heck of a lot more capable than a 200 hour pilot. Granted some of that comes from flying last semester in a Cessna 404, but we still went to places such as Atlanta and O'Hare with it. I know I'm going to get my head bitten off for this, but seriously folks. What is the point of complaining about young or inexperienced pilots when it's the future whether we like it or not? Yeah times used to be different. So what? I'm guessing some of you complaining about "when I was your age" issues flew civillian. Well guess what? There was a time too when military guys worried about all those crazy civillian pilots coming up the ranks.

Sooner or later, you're going to have a young and inexperienced FO in the cockpit sitting next to you. What are you going to do? Harass him for being stupid? Or make a difference? If he's having problems, try to help him out instead of belittling him. It's like complaining about someone in a political office when you don't vote. Moral of this story is when you get down to it, stop complaining, accept the fact that there really is a shortage of pilots in training while the industry needs more. Accept the fact that the jet jocks get younger and younger and their logbooks are getting thinner and thinner every day. And yes I too am not a big fan of the ATP schools, and the 90 day wonder flight schools, but hey, don't crap on the guys who are training in a legit fashion, and just happen to be what the airlines are looking for. Seriously. What do you guys propose they do? Not apply until they've instructed for 2000 hours and no longer enjoy the career field we are all sworn to?

Once again, I'm not trying to tick people off, I'm just trying to shed some logic on this.

By the way, I too am a student at MTSU, as well as an instrctor for the flight school.

Originally Posted by Ellen

I appreciate your confidence, but if I became unconscious or incapacitated on you IOE and you had a total of 25 hours (REAL TIME) in a jet . . . Even with 1200 TT or more . . .

#1) You would Sh!t bricks going it alone thinking about, Getting down from altitude, not overspeeding the plane, setting up the FMS, complying with speed and altitude restrictions, flying the plane and operating the radios while at 480 kts., running check lists, talking to the FA's (Flight Attendants) in back, preparing for an emergency landing in case you botched the approach up, making sure you didn't get slow on the approach or even forgetting to put the gear down . . .

#2)You probably wouldn't know what to do first, you might even freeze up. Remember, there is no one there to encourage you or correct your mistakes.

THIS IS WHY IT'S SCARY TO FLY WITH LOWER TIME PILOTS WHO HAVE ONLY FLOWN SMALL GA AIRCRAFT.

Originally Posted by shanejj

It honestly does sound like this happend to you...
If ppl who have only flown GA a/c shouldn't be allowed up that alley, how r they supose to get into flying larger commercial a/c?
Every possible problem you named, you get trained for...
Getting down from altitude, not overspeeding the plane, setting up the FMS, complying with speed and altitude restrictions, flying the plane and operating the radios while at 480 kts.,
You have an autopilot AND there's a CA on board...
why do you think a FO would screw up?
And if you became unconscious on board, your not going anywhere so why get yourself into something you can't handle, AND take 49 other ppl with you....
besides...in case of emergency....arent you allowed to deviate from any far?

Originally Posted by directbears

Preface: I am an ex-regional pilot that admittedly has been having a hard time with leaving "the game", so that's why I come here on occassion. I think this is a hysterical debate. I'll leave my personal views on this subject out, excluding the fact that the low time newbies do make me think twice about which carrier I would fly on.

Anyway, I was sitting here reading this thread and all the "but 600 hours is enough experience" and "I'm 19 and ready to be an airline pilot" type comments, and thought to myself; wonder what the pax would think? So, I let a few of the people I work with see some of the posts on this thread, and each one of them is now thoroughly frightened to fly and had some pretty choice remarks.

So the "complaining" is not just coming from the "old timer" pilots on this board, but could also be from the people that are riding in the back and are "clued in".

Originally Posted by shanejj

I still don't get how much damage a low times could do.....he's not flying the plane, the captain is....what could the low times possibly do....the radios? Bring the gear down/up? Flaps?
So seriously.....the captain with a lot more experience is right next to him, why isn't he then allowed in the cockpit?

Originally Posted by directbears

I think you are missing the point.

An FO, while the least experienced (usually) on the flight deck, still bears the responsibility for conducting a safe flight. Not trying to be an A-hole, but if you go to an airline job with the mind set of:



You are doing your crew, your pax, and yourself a disservice with that kind of thinking. Granted, regional airlines are a stepping stone where you can gain MORE experience, specifically 121 experience. However, it is unprofessional and irresponsible to think that all you do as an FO is sling the gear and man the radio.

I flew with many Captains that not only valued my experience and input as an FO, but in some cases needed it when things were going poorly. There is a reason these aircraft are certified for 2 pilots. On most days flying these machines are pretty easy with automation and all, but when the doo doo hits the fan things can get crazy pretty fast and good CRM + crew experience (sometimes luck) are the only things that will get everyone's rump on mother earth safely.

Plus, just because the Pilot is the Captain, doesn't mean he is God's gift to flight. I've flown with plenty of them that I had to scratch my head and wonder how the he11 that person got into the left seat. It is a crew environment. That means both pilots back each other up and keep each other out of trouble. Not everyone, including the CA can be on top of their game all of the time.

What would you do if your Captain keeled over on your first flight off of IOE? Your training wheels are off now, what are you going to do? When the captain has lost all situational awareness for what ever reason, are you going to sit there and watch while he CFITs you into a mountain, because he’s the Captain and is flying the plane while the FO ONLY slings the gear?

Your attitude towards the responsibility of an FO scares me even more than the low times I’m hearing about here.

Good day and good luck.