Airsupport

OK ladies lets straighten this out right now...

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, in a unanimous, three-judge panel decision, upheld an FAA interpretation of FAR 121.471b, clarifying that 16 hours is the maximum time a pilot may remain on duty, regardless of delays caused by weather, air traffic control, or maintenance.

Current regulations limit scheduled flight time for domestic operations to a maximum of 8 hours in a single duty period, with that limit to be exceeded only under circumstances beyond a carrier’s control. Another section of the rule requires that pilots "look back" after every arrival and find at least an 8-hour scheduled rest period during the previous 24 hours.
FAA Deputy Chief Counsel James Whitlow in November 2000 issued an interpretation of the rule in terms of delays, stating, "If, when using the actual expected flight time [for a flight segment], the carrier cannot find at least eight hours of look-back rest upon arrival, then the flight may not depart [on that segment]."
Specifically, the Whitlow letter said, "If, when this information is factored in, it is known or should be known that arrival based upon the actual expected flight time will not result in at least eight hours of look-back rest, then the flight may not leave the gate. If the flight is away from the gate, but not yet in the air, then the flight may not take off."

The ruling therefore requires pilots and airlines to continuously monitor delays, particularly during long duty periods, to ensure that a flight will not violate the rest requirements under the FARs. Both pilots and air carriers have a regulatory duty to not violate the rule.

Ok so for those of you who say the faa doesn't have a 16 hour rule, this post is for you.

Also note that it says 16 hours is the maximum time a pilot may remain on duty, regardless of delays caused by weather, air traffic control, or maintenance. Deadheading is being on duty because it isn't considered rest according to the faa

(f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.

note: or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.

dead heading has never been rest...

so i hope this helps clear this up.

Airsupport

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects...t_8-30-02.html

and if you would like the entire FAA RULING, here it is.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bi...ase&no=011027A

Airsupport

incorrect, refer to my post above

rickair7777

Another way to explain this: Deadhead is not duty, but it is not rest either...DH does NOT count against duty time in any way, but it DOES count against lookback rest.

Bottom line, if you are FINISHED serving as a 121 crewmember actually operating an airplane (identified by name on the 121 release) you can do ANYTHING you darn well please. Also your company can make you do anything that your contract allows, unless you call fatigued (which might be a good idea for 91 flying beyond 16 hours). But I'm not going to call fatigued for a DH I can just sleep all the way home.

Seems like a lot of folks are REALLY confused about this...you might want to call alpa national, your CP, or your POI to get some clarification. Also crew trackers can be confused on this...if I finish a trip out of domicile and they want to send me to a hotel for nine hours instead of home, I get the duty CP on the phone and get it straightened out.

Airsupport: Your reference (or any other) does not say or imply ANYWHERE that deadhead is 121 duty. Logically why would the FAA give a flying %^$%$# if you DH home at the end of a shift...they don't, as long as you're not planning on working a 121 leg when arrive!

Airsupport

It is in several sections. Very specific if you are deadheading before a flight. If your deadhead is 4 hours or more to begin a flight
then half of that time is to be taken into account for the flight time limitations.

All i am saying is if you want to play around with the faa rules then you can. If they say a deadhead isn't rest, then it isn't rest. And if it isn't rest it is duty. I know it sounds dumb and who would want to sit in a hotel when they could deadhead home. (i have them release me so i can jumpseat when it comes down to it.) That way i have no "possible" issues. All the sudden one day the faa may drop the hammer on you if something weird happens. (like you start some 121 flying the next day before you are supposed to). then they will look back and really stick it to you.

WEACLRS

Airsupport - thanks for posting this. But a couple of things. I read the ruling entirely. I also did a word search on the word "duty" and on the number "16". Nowhere in the ruling was reference made to a 16-hour duty day. Again, there is no such thing, except when you are done with the math it just so happens to equal 16 hours. It could be something less depending on the circumstances. The 16-hour duty day is taught as a construct to make the rule easier to understand, and as a result is getting people into trouble.

Rickair7777 is right. And I should have made it more clear in my post. Part 121.471 rest requirements apply only to the rest required before you engage in flight under part 121. Let me expand my example:

Day One
Show time 14:00
Leg 1 ABC - DEF 15:00 17:30 2:30
Leg 2 DEF - ABC 18:00 20:30 2:30
Leg 3 ABC - XYZ 21:30 22:30 1:00
Off Duty at 22:45
Total flight time: 6:00
(9 hours reduced rest)
Day Two
On Duty at 7:45
Leg 4 XYZ - ABC 8:30 9:30 1:00
Leg 5 ABC - GHI 10:00 12:30 2:30
Leg 6 GHI - ABC 16:30 18:30 2:30
Leg 7 ABC - XYZ 21:30 22:30 1:00
Off Duty at 22:45
Total flight time: 7:00
(12 hours compensatory rest)
Day Three
On Duty 10:45
Leg 8 XYZ - ABC 11:30 12:30 1:00
Off Duty at 12:45

This is a more complete scenario, and a nasty, but legal schedule. Between the start of duty day one at 14:00 and the end of leg 5 on day two our intrepid pilot is scheduled/flew 9:30. Because of this he must be given at least nine hours rest the first night. Since this is reduced rest under 121.471(c)(3), and he is continuing in 121 operations, he must be given compensatory rest of 12 hours starting no later than 22:45 on day two. This he receives by not returning to duty until 10:45 on day three. This schedule is legal.

Now let's say that he's flying as a flight crewmember on leg 7 and the flight is delayed so that it can't arrive by 22:30. Now he is not legal to start the flight, because he will not be on rest by 22:45. The flight must return to the gate. If the flight got off the ground in time to arrive by 22:30, but was held in the air, and arrived late at 23:00 (off duty at 23:15), then it's legal, but he can't return to duty until he's had 12 hours rest, or until 11:15 the next morning.

Lastly, let's say that leg 7 is a deadhead. If it leaves on schedule (even 15 minutes late because there is no "15-minutes-after-block-in" for deadhead), he's fine. However, if it leaves late and arrives late, say at 22:46, he's still legal to go because he is not a required flight crewmember, but he can't show for the next day until 12 hours after the leg 7 flight blocks in.

In the original question that started the thread, as long as the pilot gets the required rest before he returns to duty, he's fine. 121.471 is a "look-back" rule. You must be able to look-back at any time in the plan or revised schedule and see the required rest. As a pairing is flown as a required flight crewmember, before you start the next leg, you must be able to look back the previous 24 hours and have completed the required rest.

Airsupport

You are correct. It doesn't say anywhere in the regs that there is a 16 hour rule. What you are forgetting is the way the FAA interpreted the rule. Sure it doesn't say 16, but i will bet you dollars to donuts that they will follow their interpretation of the rule (even thought it doesn't spell it out exactly). Their own rules say deadhead isn't considered rest. It doesn't say that it is duty though. So what are we to do??? I will play it safe and say "ok the faa says that deadheading isn't rest, so to play it safe i have to consider it duty. ie. traveling from a destination to my home base" The faa to us has many grey areas, but to them, when they need it, it will be crystal clear. Like i said earlier, if you want to push them to see how they will interepret it thats fine, i will just be released and jumpseat home rather than take the risk that my local fsdo will say i was on duty for 17 hours without the required rest.

the faa can barely interpret their own rules,, i am not going to try and figure out what the "ment"

hey and if its not duty that means i can order my beer on the flight home right???

Airsupport

Also i think you are getting confused with the times. Deadheading isn't considered a flight duty. But you are still technically on duty. So there is a limit to the amount you can do. ( just like you can't be on reserve 24hours a day seven days a week, i don't believe the rules say reserve is duty, but it does say reserve isn't considered rest) You just cant be dead headed around all day. According to the faa deadhead isn't rest, so i bet when and if a problem arises they will say that deadheading is duty. As you can see there are a lot of precidents that can get you introuble if you decided to test this rule.

WEACLRS

I think your caution is a good way to go. Company required deadheading is not flight time, but certainly is duty and not rest (we agree on this). The regs and the FAA is very clear about that.

I will quote one more part of the reg and then let it go because we've certainly beat this to death (I hope ):

121.471(b) "...no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of a flight segment without a scheduled rest..."

121.471 does not mention anywhere "duty day" and mentions the word "duty" only in the construct of 121.471(f) to make sure that airlines wouldn't try to use the deadhead home at the end of a pairing as rest before scheduling more flight time (and to make sure the airline understands deadheading is duty).

WestCoaster

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects...farmaxduty.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...go&newsId=6762

Duty day is specified in the pilot contract for each carrier, but it is implied in the FARs. As per 121.471, each 24 hour period that includes flight time must include at least 8 hours of rest. Rest is time not on duty. Deadheading is not considered rest (121.471(f)). This means you have 16 hours (24 - 8) in a 24 hour period to be on duty.