121 Pilots! I have a Reg Q to discuss
03-24-2007, 10:20 AM
#42
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: CRJ
Posts: 2,356
Originally Posted by WestCoaster
http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects...farmaxduty.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...go&newsId=6762
Duty day is specified in the pilot contract for each carrier, but it is implied in the FARs. As per 121.471, each 24 hour period that includes flight time must include at least 8 hours of rest. Rest is time not on duty. Deadheading is not considered rest (121.471(f)). This means you have 16 hours (24 - 8) in a 24 hour period to be on duty.
http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...go&newsId=6762
Duty day is specified in the pilot contract for each carrier, but it is implied in the FARs. As per 121.471, each 24 hour period that includes flight time must include at least 8 hours of rest. Rest is time not on duty. Deadheading is not considered rest (121.471(f)). This means you have 16 hours (24 - 8) in a 24 hour period to be on duty.
03-24-2007, 10:21 AM
#43
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: 737/FO
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by WestCoaster
http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects...farmaxduty.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...go&newsId=6762
Duty day is specified in the pilot contract for each carrier, but it is implied in the FARs. As per 121.471, each 24 hour period that includes flight time must include at least 8 hours of rest. Rest is time not on duty. Deadheading is not considered rest (121.471(f)). This means you have 16 hours (24 - 8) in a 24 hour period to be on duty.
http://www.faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/...go&newsId=6762
Duty day is specified in the pilot contract for each carrier, but it is implied in the FARs. As per 121.471, each 24 hour period that includes flight time must include at least 8 hours of rest. Rest is time not on duty. Deadheading is not considered rest (121.471(f)). This means you have 16 hours (24 - 8) in a 24 hour period to be on duty.
03-24-2007, 10:22 AM
#44
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: 737/FO
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by Airsupport
that is exactly what i am saying. When the faa comes knocking they will count your deadheads as being on duty since deadheads are not rest. and yes this horse has been beaten to death!!! just like the good ole days 1 fsdo, 7 poi's and 7 different interpretations.
03-24-2007, 11:21 AM
#45
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,293
Originally Posted by Airsupport
that is exactly what i am saying. When the faa comes knocking they will count your deadheads as being on duty since deadheads are not rest. and yes this horse has been beaten to death!!! just like the good ole days 1 fsdo, 7 poi's and 7 different interpretations.
Deadhead is NOT "121 duty", but it is "company duty"...
You cannot be on "121 duty" more than 16 hours, due to the lookback requirement.
You CAN be on "company duty" for as long as you, your company, and your contract allow...the FAA doesn't care about company duty (including 91 flying) as long as yoe get your legal rest BEFORE starting your next 121 duty period. "Company Duty" is NOT rest, including a duty to answer your phone, ie reserve.
Here's an example: You do know that some airlines have pilots on long-call reserve 24/7 right? How can THEY legally be on "duty" for days straight? Because it's "company duty", not "121 duty"...no 121 flying is involved. If these long-call reserves get a called to work, the company MUST release them from reserve duty long enough to get the required rest prior to starting their flight assignment.
This is NOT a grey area at all, any POI or CP will be crystal clear on this (your contract may be more conservative).
03-24-2007, 11:24 AM
#46
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
Originally Posted by rickair7777
No, they absolutely will NOT count DH as being on 121 duty. You could legally work a 16 hour 121 duty day and then DH to mars.
Deadhead is NOT "121 duty", but it is "company duty"...
You cannot be on "121 duty" more than 16 hours, due to the lookback ).
Deadhead is NOT "121 duty", but it is "company duty"...
You cannot be on "121 duty" more than 16 hours, due to the lookback ).
03-24-2007, 11:26 AM
#47
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: EMB-145 FO
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by rickair7777
No, they absolutely will NOT count DH as being on 121 duty. You could legally work a 16 hour 121 duty day and then DH to mars.
Deadhead is NOT "121 duty", but it is "company duty"...
You cannot be on "121 duty" more than 16 hours, due to the lookback requirement.
You CAN be on "company duty" for as long as you, your company, and your contract allow...the FAA doesn't care about company duty (including 91 flying) as long as yoe get your legal rest BEFORE starting your next 121 duty period. "Company Duty" is NOT rest, including a duty to answer your phone, ie reserve.
Here's an example: You do know that some airlines have pilots on long-call reserve 24/7 right? How can THEY legally be on "duty" for days straight? Because it's "company duty", not "121 duty"...no 121 flying is involved. If these long-call reserves get a called to work, the company MUST release them from reserve duty long enough to get the required rest prior to starting their flight assignment.
This is NOT a grey area at all, any POI or CP will be crystal clear on this (your contract may be more conservative).
Deadhead is NOT "121 duty", but it is "company duty"...
You cannot be on "121 duty" more than 16 hours, due to the lookback requirement.
You CAN be on "company duty" for as long as you, your company, and your contract allow...the FAA doesn't care about company duty (including 91 flying) as long as yoe get your legal rest BEFORE starting your next 121 duty period. "Company Duty" is NOT rest, including a duty to answer your phone, ie reserve.
Here's an example: You do know that some airlines have pilots on long-call reserve 24/7 right? How can THEY legally be on "duty" for days straight? Because it's "company duty", not "121 duty"...no 121 flying is involved. If these long-call reserves get a called to work, the company MUST release them from reserve duty long enough to get the required rest prior to starting their flight assignment.
This is NOT a grey area at all, any POI or CP will be crystal clear on this (your contract may be more conservative).
03-24-2007, 11:28 AM
#48
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Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
Originally Posted by WestCoaster
It doesn't MATTER that deadheading is or is not considered part of duty. The key here is that it is NOT CONSIDERED REST. And you must be released to rest in order to comply with reduced/compensatory rest requirements as well as maintain 8 hours of rest within a 24 hour period in which there is flying.
03-24-2007, 02:11 PM
#50
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For those of you who believe that DH time is in no way 121 time, try this scenario on for size.
You are on reserve and get called out to replace someone who went sick in the field. The only flight your company can get you on leaves early in the morning. The trip you are filling in for has a report time in the afternoon.....and since your company is so nice, they put you into a hotel for a few hours versus stranding you at the airport.....and then you go on duty for a mere 8.5 hours.
So,
0500 show
0800 arrival and release to the hotel
1430 show
2300 release
Now, since a DH is in no way considered part of your 121 duty day, are you legal for this situation? Your company tells you they really need you there and the DH is part 91 ops, legal/not legal?
the question this thread started with was a guy DH back to sit reserve at the end of a grossly long day. (what we still don't know is how his duty day-121-stretched to 16.5 hours) At least one of the comments indicated that MESA was contractually obligated to put him into a hotel, if he wanted, but....the company really wanted him back (to sit reserve).
If he went to 16.5 hours in an avoidable situation, he should run/not walk to file an ASRS report before Mesa beats him to it. Some people seem to strongly object to using the term duty day....so, call it want you want, but the most 121 duty time you can have in a rolling 24 hour clock is 24-8 hours of rest....and as has been mentioned, could be considerably less time available
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
So,
Choice A. You work a long day. Company sends you to a hotel (staying on per diem), DH back the following day, sit reserve again.
Choice B. You work a long day. Company DH's you back after a really long day, sit reserve again.
You are on reserve and get called out to replace someone who went sick in the field. The only flight your company can get you on leaves early in the morning. The trip you are filling in for has a report time in the afternoon.....and since your company is so nice, they put you into a hotel for a few hours versus stranding you at the airport.....and then you go on duty for a mere 8.5 hours.
So,
0500 show
0800 arrival and release to the hotel
1430 show
2300 release
Now, since a DH is in no way considered part of your 121 duty day, are you legal for this situation? Your company tells you they really need you there and the DH is part 91 ops, legal/not legal?
the question this thread started with was a guy DH back to sit reserve at the end of a grossly long day. (what we still don't know is how his duty day-121-stretched to 16.5 hours) At least one of the comments indicated that MESA was contractually obligated to put him into a hotel, if he wanted, but....the company really wanted him back (to sit reserve).
If he went to 16.5 hours in an avoidable situation, he should run/not walk to file an ASRS report before Mesa beats him to it. Some people seem to strongly object to using the term duty day....so, call it want you want, but the most 121 duty time you can have in a rolling 24 hour clock is 24-8 hours of rest....and as has been mentioned, could be considerably less time available
http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/
So,
Choice A. You work a long day. Company sends you to a hotel (staying on per diem), DH back the following day, sit reserve again.
Choice B. You work a long day. Company DH's you back after a really long day, sit reserve again.
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