Skywest ATC Warnings?????
#11
True, however at airlines that have ASAP in place aircrews have better protections than that offered by ASRS. ASRS was created with all of aviation in mind, however over the years it has failed to grow with the safety concepts that airlines and national unions have developed for professional flight crews. ASAP is a much more appropriate program for part 121 operations, and it offers much more in the way of protections, provided that it is set up correctly and has union representation on the ASAP committee.
ASRS is great and is definitely better than nothing...but as a regular tool for modern airline pilots in contemporary times? No way! Between ASRS and ASAP, ASAP wins hands-down for its flight crew protections and active role in procedural change for safety.
In the P-56 example, you violate P-56 and file an ASRS and you will still get violated but may not lose your tickets for 120 days but you darn sure will get violated and that will show up on your record. Do the same and file an ASAP and the violation goes into a company ASAP file that nobody outside of you, the ASAP company, union and FAA reps will ever see and it will not show up on a PRIA check.
#12
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Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,888
I would have posted a lengthy reply to you Blackhawk, but Josh said everything I was gonna say.
ASRS is great and is definitely better than nothing...but as a regular tool for modern airline pilots in contemporary times? No way! Between ASRS and ASAP, ASAP wins hands-down for its flight crew protections and active role in procedural change for safety.
In the P-56 example, you violate P-56 and file an ASRS and you will still get violated but may not lose your tickets for 120 days but you darn sure will get violated and that will show up on your record. Do the same and file an ASAP and the violation goes into a company ASAP file that nobody outside of you, the ASAP company, union and FAA reps will ever see and it will not show up on a PRIA check.
ASRS is great and is definitely better than nothing...but as a regular tool for modern airline pilots in contemporary times? No way! Between ASRS and ASAP, ASAP wins hands-down for its flight crew protections and active role in procedural change for safety.
In the P-56 example, you violate P-56 and file an ASRS and you will still get violated but may not lose your tickets for 120 days but you darn sure will get violated and that will show up on your record. Do the same and file an ASAP and the violation goes into a company ASAP file that nobody outside of you, the ASAP company, union and FAA reps will ever see and it will not show up on a PRIA check.
#13
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Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 692
I would have posted a lengthy reply to you Blackhawk, but Josh said everything I was gonna say.
ASRS is great and is definitely better than nothing...but as a regular tool for modern airline pilots in contemporary times? No way! Between ASRS and ASAP, ASAP wins hands-down for its flight crew protections and active role in procedural change for safety.
In the P-56 example, you violate P-56 and file an ASRS and you will still get violated but may not lose your tickets for 120 days but you darn sure will get violated and that will show up on your record. Do the same and file an ASAP and the violation goes into a company ASAP file that nobody outside of you, the ASAP company, union and FAA reps will ever see and it will not show up on a PRIA check.
ASRS is great and is definitely better than nothing...but as a regular tool for modern airline pilots in contemporary times? No way! Between ASRS and ASAP, ASAP wins hands-down for its flight crew protections and active role in procedural change for safety.
In the P-56 example, you violate P-56 and file an ASRS and you will still get violated but may not lose your tickets for 120 days but you darn sure will get violated and that will show up on your record. Do the same and file an ASAP and the violation goes into a company ASAP file that nobody outside of you, the ASAP company, union and FAA reps will ever see and it will not show up on a PRIA check.
#14
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: ERJ FO
Posts: 1,276
Don't confuse company protection through the union with FAA issues. THe FAA does not care if you have a union. Yes the ASAP records will be sealed, but I would be very careful about this because if you get a violation it could come up on a FAA certificate records check done by a company.
I'll take ASAP...and my union rep...
#15
ASAP is not that great of a deal at Skywest because the fine print says the company can still take disciplinary action against you, including firing you. Its probably still better than NASA for protection from the FAA if youre a multiple offender... but similar programs asap/jasap at union carriers protect you just as much from the company as it does from the FAA, is this true union guys?
#16
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 717
Posts: 127
Please, Please, Please!!!!!!!
Do NOT think that the ASAP reports are not locatable.... Yes, they do NOT show up on a PRIA, but when a Freedom of Info request goes in by an employer, it comes back as a "We cannot confirm or deny whether the applicant has anything" or some such lingo from the FAA... That DOES raise questions and flags on interviews... It happened. It was better to have brought the damned thing up prior to them finding it... Just a heads up...
#17
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Joined APC: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,888
Again, all of you are just talking about which one will save your ticket. I have yet to see any ASAP information disseminated outside company walls in a format that will save other pilots and their passengers. The only ASAP information I have EVER seen to date has been through my brother who is at a carrier with ASAP, and that is because HE sent it to me.
ASRS is disseminated to anyone and everyone who wants it. If critical, dangerous safety issues are identified by the ASRS program they are made public ASAP. Given a choice between saving my ticket and saving lives, I will choose the lives first.
ASRS is disseminated to anyone and everyone who wants it. If critical, dangerous safety issues are identified by the ASRS program they are made public ASAP. Given a choice between saving my ticket and saving lives, I will choose the lives first.
#18
ASAP is not that great of a deal at Skywest because the fine print says the company can still take disciplinary action against you, including firing you. Its probably still better than NASA for protection from the FAA if youre a multiple offender... but similar programs asap/jasap at union carriers protect you just as much from the company as it does from the FAA, is this true union guys?
#19
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,425
Do NOT think that the ASAP reports are not locatable.... Yes, they do NOT show up on a PRIA, but when a Freedom of Info request goes in by an employer, it comes back as a "We cannot confirm or deny whether the applicant has anything" or some such lingo from the FAA... That DOES raise questions and flags on interviews... It happened. It was better to have brought the damned thing up prior to them finding it... Just a heads up...
#20
Again, all of you are just talking about which one will save your ticket. I have yet to see any ASAP information disseminated outside company walls in a format that will save other pilots and their passengers. The only ASAP information I have EVER seen to date has been through my brother who is at a carrier with ASAP, and that is because HE sent it to me.
ASRS is disseminated to anyone and everyone who wants it. If critical, dangerous safety issues are identified by the ASRS program they are made public ASAP. Given a choice between saving my ticket and saving lives, I will choose the lives first.
ASRS is disseminated to anyone and everyone who wants it. If critical, dangerous safety issues are identified by the ASRS program they are made public ASAP. Given a choice between saving my ticket and saving lives, I will choose the lives first.
A good example of this was the Korry 2 Arrival (now the Korry 3) into LGA. Several years back the stepdowns on the arrival were changed after several ACA crews missed mandatory altitude restrictions. Each of these crews submitted ASAP reports explaining how the high rate of descent and both maximum and minimum mandatory altitudes for particular fixes (such as cross XYZ between 11,000 and 12000 resulted in irregular descent profiles, that required varying descent angles/rates.
The consequence? The procedure was changed. The same holds true of many other reports that have been submitted. ASAP data is certainly used mostly in-house, however procedures used by everybody are adapted in a much more timely matter through ASAP reporting.
That said, anybody who fills out an ASAP report should also (and is highly encouraged) to fill out a corresponding ASRS report. But if you're only going to fill out one report, from a career standpoint, your're going to be much better off if you fill out the ASAP report.
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