Would this be bad???
08-01-2007 | 06:02 PM
#41
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From: RC-3 Seabee. Skipper of the A21 cutter.
yeah I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that... blastboy, I dunno where you heard that... but a person's gotta be really arrogant or inexperienced to say they feel comfortable in their first 121 turbine a/c in 50-100 hrs!!! Everyone I've spoken to quotes 400-500 hr-ish. When I jumpseated on others carriers and the more experienced pilots told me, "it will take you about 5 months to get comfortable".. I was thinking like yeah right it won't take me that long. And that's the newbie mentality. If you talk to fresh newbies they might say "yeah I'm comfy" but talk to them again in a few months and they will tell you that they're just now starting to get comfy and can't believe how clueless they had been. UNLESS they are so deluded with self confidence in which case they will never admit that or even realize it.
and as far as 250 hr guys burdening capts, I don't think DE727 was referring to IOE capts but regular capts. Just cuz you got signed off on IOE doesn't mean you now have the skills of a full-fledged experienced FO... most people will still continue to make mistakes albeit lesser ones, and any capt you fly with will still have to watch over you. the 20-50 hrs you get on IOE is just the beginning!
and as far as 250 hr guys burdening capts, I don't think DE727 was referring to IOE capts but regular capts. Just cuz you got signed off on IOE doesn't mean you now have the skills of a full-fledged experienced FO... most people will still continue to make mistakes albeit lesser ones, and any capt you fly with will still have to watch over you. the 20-50 hrs you get on IOE is just the beginning!
I would agree 1000% that it would take 500hrs (maybe more in some cases) to become comfortable and confident in an RJ. But that applies to anyone who has never flown a jet; my point being that a 2000hr CFI would be in the same boat as the 250hr guy (neither having jet experience) and put the same "burdens" on the captain (and I'm refering to general skills in handling a jet). I'm just saying the 250hr guy shouldn't be scrutinzed anymore than an experienced CFI because they both have zero experience in 121 and Jets. There's always the occasional CFI who gets some right seat time in a Citation or what have you but that's rare.
I was assuming he meant IOE capts. IOE is the tip of the ice berg, I couldn't agree more! Just like getting my CFI isn't going to make me superstar instructor the day after I get it.
Comes with hands on, real world schise. I'm not in any hurry to get into the 121 chapter but I am certainly looking forward to it!
08-01-2007 | 06:28 PM
#42
Prime Minister/Moderator
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
The key experience benefits that a 1000 or 2000 hour CFI has over a wet commercial are...
- The ability to talk on the radio, and more importantly an intuitive understanding of the traffic picture based on radio chatter. The wet commercial is focusing all of his little brain cells on simply not missing his call sign (he will anyway), he is tuning out all that OTHER radio stuff.
- An inherent suspicion of his CA, ATC, dispatch, etc. He is less inclined to blindly follow along, therefore he is a useful backup. The wet commercial provides very little backup on anything.
- The ability to talk on the radio, and more importantly an intuitive understanding of the traffic picture based on radio chatter. The wet commercial is focusing all of his little brain cells on simply not missing his call sign (he will anyway), he is tuning out all that OTHER radio stuff.
- An inherent suspicion of his CA, ATC, dispatch, etc. He is less inclined to blindly follow along, therefore he is a useful backup. The wet commercial provides very little backup on anything.
08-01-2007 | 06:43 PM
#43
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From: RC-3 Seabee. Skipper of the A21 cutter.
The key experience benefits that a 1000 or 2000 hour CFI has over a wet commercial are...
- The ability to talk on the radio, and more importantly an intuitive understanding of the traffic picture based on radio chatter. The wet commercial is focusing all of his little brain cells on simply not missing his call sign (he will anyway), he is tuning out all that OTHER radio stuff.
- An inherent suspicion of his CA, ATC, dispatch, etc. He is less inclined to blindly follow along, therefore he is a useful backup. The wet commercial provides very little backup on anything.
- The ability to talk on the radio, and more importantly an intuitive understanding of the traffic picture based on radio chatter. The wet commercial is focusing all of his little brain cells on simply not missing his call sign (he will anyway), he is tuning out all that OTHER radio stuff.
- An inherent suspicion of his CA, ATC, dispatch, etc. He is less inclined to blindly follow along, therefore he is a useful backup. The wet commercial provides very little backup on anything.
What inherent suspicion with ATC, CA and dispatch? ATC has no idea whos flying the airplane. It could be the captain speaking for all they know. My point was with jet handling skills and simply keeping up with the aircraft as that's where a lot of adjustment is needed whether you are a CFI or wet commercial. CFIs and 250hr guys have two big things in common: they rarely to never exceed 130kts and have never flown a jet. The residual skills with dispatch, company operations and other ground school materials is a different thing and anyone can learn that stuff if they study it.
08-01-2007 | 06:56 PM
#44
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I wouldn't say a wet comm has poor atc skills. That's all dependent on the individual. I hear plenty of majors missing their callsign when I'm buzzing around here in SoCal.
What inherent suspicion with ATC, CA and dispatch? ATC has no idea whos flying the airplane. It could be the captain speaking for all they know. My point was with jet handling skills and simply keeping up with the aircraft as that's where a lot of adjustment is needed whether you are a CFI or wet commercial. CFIs and 250hr guys have two big things in common: they rarely to never exceed 130kts and have never flown a jet. The residual skills with dispatch, company operations and other ground school materials is a different thing and anyone can learn that stuff if they study it.
What inherent suspicion with ATC, CA and dispatch? ATC has no idea whos flying the airplane. It could be the captain speaking for all they know. My point was with jet handling skills and simply keeping up with the aircraft as that's where a lot of adjustment is needed whether you are a CFI or wet commercial. CFIs and 250hr guys have two big things in common: they rarely to never exceed 130kts and have never flown a jet. The residual skills with dispatch, company operations and other ground school materials is a different thing and anyone can learn that stuff if they study it.
I think that's one disadvantage to instructing... you learn a lot about flying, but you also miss out on a lot because you ARE the knowledgeable guy in the airplane. Flying with somebody with gobs more experience than you can only improve your skills.
08-01-2007 | 07:00 PM
#45
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From: EMB-145 FO
I wouldn't say a wet comm has poor atc skills. That's all dependent on the individual. I hear plenty of majors missing their callsign when I'm buzzing around here in SoCal.
What inherent suspicion with ATC, CA and dispatch? ATC has no idea whos flying the airplane. It could be the captain speaking for all they know. My point was with jet handling skills and simply keeping up with the aircraft as that's where a lot of adjustment is needed whether you are a CFI or wet commercial. CFIs and 250hr guys have two big things in common: they rarely to never exceed 130kts and have never flown a jet. The residual skills with dispatch, company operations and other ground school materials is a different thing and anyone can learn that stuff if they study it.
What inherent suspicion with ATC, CA and dispatch? ATC has no idea whos flying the airplane. It could be the captain speaking for all they know. My point was with jet handling skills and simply keeping up with the aircraft as that's where a lot of adjustment is needed whether you are a CFI or wet commercial. CFIs and 250hr guys have two big things in common: they rarely to never exceed 130kts and have never flown a jet. The residual skills with dispatch, company operations and other ground school materials is a different thing and anyone can learn that stuff if they study it.
08-01-2007 | 07:21 PM
#46
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From: Flight Instructor
I dont see how being an MEI is going to help him become a better First Officer. He needs 121 experience. I am in the same deliema. Trying to decide to apply with an airline now or Flight Instruct for a while. I am leaning toward going for the airlines.
08-01-2007 | 08:03 PM
#47
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From: Leftof longitudinal
SA,
You have to be able to distinguish between taking care of number one by
1. scabs
2: Pilots legitimately moving forward in their flying career that is beneficial to themselves and our profession.
3. Pilots moving forward in their flying career that is beneficial to themselves but not our profession.
Only selection 2 should you encourage, we are afterall, a profession. That incurs certain responsibilities to make the industry better. If you cannot distinguish these salient career elements, you risk being in choice 1 or 3 and suffer the scorn of the rest of the professionals. HSLD was discussing option 2.
You have to be able to distinguish between taking care of number one by
1. scabs
2: Pilots legitimately moving forward in their flying career that is beneficial to themselves and our profession.
3. Pilots moving forward in their flying career that is beneficial to themselves but not our profession.
Only selection 2 should you encourage, we are afterall, a profession. That incurs certain responsibilities to make the industry better. If you cannot distinguish these salient career elements, you risk being in choice 1 or 3 and suffer the scorn of the rest of the professionals. HSLD was discussing option 2.
08-01-2007 | 08:10 PM
#48
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From: RC-3 Seabee. Skipper of the A21 cutter.
As a CFI you should be thinking ahead as if you are in a jet. Many of times I have watched my students approach the Class D without even having tower in standby. Chances are they would have been on downwind before they made the initial call. The CFI will have more experience dealing with weather, traffic, abnormal, and emergency situations than someone with a wet commercial. This stuff comes with paying your dues.
I said it once, twice and I'll say it again: The average 250hr pilot and the average CFI have no jet or 121 experience. Staying ahead of an aircraft moving at 460kts will pose to be a challenge for both. The systems will be a whole new ball game as well and so will dispatch and most of the other material.Of course the CFI has more experience with weather, ATC, etc etc. That's a given. My point, and my only point, was that both will be faced with the same training challenges with no previous jet or 121 experience to help them out. That's all I was saying. I couldn't agree more that being a CFI will make you a better pilot and master the basics. There's no argument to that in my opinion. Anyway >yawn<, the table is all yours, I'm off to sleep.
Last edited by blastboy; 08-01-2007 at 08:34 PM.
08-01-2007 | 09:37 PM
#49
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From: UPS 757/767 Capt ONT
"my point being that a 2000hr CFI would be in the same boat as the 250hr guy"
Both will be behind the jet. The CFI is much more well rounded as an experienced, confident, pilot. The 250hr guy brings to little to the cockpit of a jet airliner. He's being babysat and will learn, but will not be able to offer much to his Capt. And no, it's really not something I've personally had to face, either, but I've flown with new F/O's before, and been one, and in both cases I was very grateful for the years of experience brought to the cockpit.
It's funny how the folks who are cool with low time, are low time.
"I dont see how being an MEI is going to help him become a better First Officer"
"I am in the same deliema. Trying to decide to apply with an airline now or Flight Instruct for a while."
This totally proves my point....
I mean no disrespect. But until ones a 121 Capt having to fly with a 250 hour F/O, I'm not sure one will "get it".
And saying "You're at Brown, so it's not your problem" hardly means that those of us that care about this profession should just keep quiet about it.
Both will be behind the jet. The CFI is much more well rounded as an experienced, confident, pilot. The 250hr guy brings to little to the cockpit of a jet airliner. He's being babysat and will learn, but will not be able to offer much to his Capt. And no, it's really not something I've personally had to face, either, but I've flown with new F/O's before, and been one, and in both cases I was very grateful for the years of experience brought to the cockpit.
It's funny how the folks who are cool with low time, are low time.
"I dont see how being an MEI is going to help him become a better First Officer"
"I am in the same deliema. Trying to decide to apply with an airline now or Flight Instruct for a while."
This totally proves my point....
I mean no disrespect. But until ones a 121 Capt having to fly with a 250 hour F/O, I'm not sure one will "get it".
And saying "You're at Brown, so it's not your problem" hardly means that those of us that care about this profession should just keep quiet about it.
08-01-2007 | 09:55 PM
#50
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From: 757/767
"my point being that a 2000hr CFI would be in the same boat as the 250hr guy"
Both will be behind the jet. The CFI is much more well rounded as an experienced, confident, pilot. The 250hr guy brings to little to the cockpit of a jet airliner. He's being babysat and will learn, but will not be able to offer much to his Capt. And no, it's really not something I've personally had to face, either, but I've flown with new F/O's before, and been one, and in both cases I was very grateful for the years of experience brought to the cockpit.
It's funny how the folks who are cool with low time, are low time.
"I dont see how being an MEI is going to help him become a better First Officer"
"I am in the same deliema. Trying to decide to apply with an airline now or Flight Instruct for a while."
This totally proves my point....
I mean no disrespect. But until ones a 121 Capt having to fly with a 250 hour F/O, I'm not sure one will "get it".
And saying "You're at Brown, so it's not your problem" hardly means that those of us that care about this profession should just keep quiet about it.
Both will be behind the jet. The CFI is much more well rounded as an experienced, confident, pilot. The 250hr guy brings to little to the cockpit of a jet airliner. He's being babysat and will learn, but will not be able to offer much to his Capt. And no, it's really not something I've personally had to face, either, but I've flown with new F/O's before, and been one, and in both cases I was very grateful for the years of experience brought to the cockpit.
It's funny how the folks who are cool with low time, are low time.
"I dont see how being an MEI is going to help him become a better First Officer"
"I am in the same deliema. Trying to decide to apply with an airline now or Flight Instruct for a while."
This totally proves my point....
I mean no disrespect. But until ones a 121 Capt having to fly with a 250 hour F/O, I'm not sure one will "get it".
And saying "You're at Brown, so it's not your problem" hardly means that those of us that care about this profession should just keep quiet about it.
I do get a little tired of low time guys saying things like "an extra 1000 hours won't do me any good or make me a better pilot." How the h**l would you know. I just don't understand being proud of being inexperienced. Instead of saying things like above how bout' "i realize in a different time i would require a lot more time to get on with this carrier. but hey the opportunity is there so I'm going to humbly make the best of it."
Deez
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