Now all of the sudden someone wants to talk about "not a fact to be found". Now that is a good one. Exactly where in my last post did I accuse you or anyone else for being responsible for PFT?

 

Cold hard facts! Are you kidding me? You have not ONCE made available anything published to back up your argument. Lets not appear to take the high road here and not have anything to back it up.
You don't see doctors and laywers taking pay cuts.....I guess the HMO is something your not familiar with. I have a brother who is an orthopaedic surgeon that would love to tear you limb from limb for THAT ignorant statement and a sister-in-law who is one of the top litigators in the country who would be next in line for your hide. Both of you clowns are slitting your own wrists every time you post. First its general opinions with ZERO facts about why pilot salaries are down and then when you are backed into a corner you cry about factless statements. You both would have a GREAT careers on the Hill. Again, I implore you to give me ONE article, statement, interview, etc...that places PFT pukes solely to blame for lower pilot salaries. You can't and you know it and your frustration about that is glaringly present.

 

For those that seem to be having a problem following the topic here, its PFT pilots. I want ONE, just ONE person to PLEASE post a link to SOMETHING that blames PFT pilots for lowering pilot salaries overall. If so I will shut up and give KB and Capt D their just desserts.

 

Captain Drew,

You state that you don't care one iota about if Dell outsources to New Delhi, or if your local university bypasses educated research graduates and goes straight to adjuncts or interns, yet you state that junior pilots should care about YOU and take the hard line to cover YOUR back?

You get what you give, and your ignorance and lack of care for anybody but your own self, clearly should be an indicator to you why nobody seems to care about YOU. You are part of our society, and regardless of whether you are in the computer industry or any other industry affected by outsourcing and the global economy, as a citizen both of our country and our world, you should display the care you ask others to have for you.

It again proves my point of how self-absorbed and self-serving you truly are. If you are going to *****, and reserve the right to *****, make sure that you walk your own talk - and not expect noble behaviors of others that you are not willing to display yourself.

Finally, physicians and attorneys are two of the oldest professions in the world. Commercial pilots are one of the youngest professions of the world, relatively speaking. Comparing the two is comparing apples to oranges, and quite arrogant. Besides, the previous post has a good point; ask any doctor about financial cuts and his view of how HMO's have killed their profits ... and you might find equally bitter apples as yourself.

You ask for focus in this "debate". Voila, here is your focus and million dollar question: Please explain to us (in facts and not mere opinions) why you feel that junior pilots are to blame for your paycuts or lower salaries, as opposed to management and the economy as a whole?

I look forward to what will hopefully be a logical, informative and courteous response. Try to cut down on the personal insults if you will, as that discredits every point you try to make. You talk about keeping it to the "Cold hard facts"? Then please do so, and keep your emotions out of it.

 

Just to clue everyone in, mainly KB and Captain Drew, who seem to have this word at the top of their vocabulary.

Ignorance is a lack of understanding. Ignorance is NOT a grasp of the subject and disagreeing with your opinion.

 

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU!

It is a toss up. That is why I am “from” there. . but the whacky politics and taxes, unfortunately, followed me West.

I have some hope for MA, as there is a ‘core’ of good values people there, who occasionally elect someone like Mitt Rommney. For the life of me, I don’t understand why Kerry/Kennedy just waltz back into office every six years. Then, there’s Babs & Diane!

The reasons each place are FAR Left are different. For MA, it is the large concentration of Socialist Training Camps (colleges & universities) in a confined area. That has to have a significant, negative effect on the collective common sense and proper thinking of the populace. Makes me want to puke that it WAS “The Cradle of Liberty”. NOW, its the Cradle of Leftist Oppression.

SFO has always attracted the most FAR Left from around the world and is a lost cause. We ought to consider splitting CA into 2 separate states and let them dance to the tune of their own minstrel. They will soon be asking for Foreign Aid from the rest of the states, because they have NO idea how to run things without bleeding the taxpayer dry.

I’ll be looking forward to that card . .I can put it up on my dart board along with others I enjoy perforating <g>

 

drew i have one question,

What is your beef with the left side of politics, you keep talking about it but with no actual reason for your hate for them. You just rant about how they are bringing down the values of America. What values are they bringing down? What are they doing to this country that is so bad? In my opinion the problem is it is too one sided to the right. I am independent also but I have more hate for the right then the left. They are rapping every person in this country except for the richest 1% and then try to cover it with moral values. I give it ten or so years and the US will be bankrupt and back to the 1800's way of life. You talk about education being important and then downgrade the states that have the most educated and brillant minds in the nation who side with the left more. I think there is a reason for this.

 

Amen to that, preludespeeder, I couldn't agree more. Drew, you should move to Texas, where it seems you'd be surrounded by your own kind? I'm independent also, and no, sorry Drew, I don't live in San Fran or in Northern Cal (wish I did though; Napa Valley and I get along fantastically - or rather ... their wines and I get along quite well!). I see problems with both right AND left extreme fanaticism, but I don't think one is better or worse than the other. Right wing nut jobs and left wing fanatics are both out of line in our country in my opinion. If this country will stand a chance of correcting itself, we need more centrally oriented politicians in office. Hmmm, maybe we should vote folks like Drew to office ... I'm sure he'd whip this country into shape in a matter of weeks ...

 

Woa, you sound alot like my wife

Oh come on lighten up. When I fly with your husband, trust me, we'll both have something in common to (whine??) talk about

 

How do you have a discussion with someone who either cannot read -or insists on totally twisting what you say?

I DID NOT say THAT! I did NOT say “I don’t care”, I simply made the point that Dell outsourcing is a FACT and cannot be equated (outsourcing) in ANY way with pilot pay. In FACT, I DO care . . very much. To quote some of the younger pilots on here .. it SUCKS! I used to have respect for Michael Dell and his technical and business acumen.

Although I am, have been and always will be . .a “Mac guy”, I have been forced to deal, on an intimate basis with the IBM/Gates/Windoze “Dark Side” of the equation because my daughter’s first professors in their Busniess minors announced to the class on the first day that “you need a ‘Windoze‘ operating system to get by in this university”. Same with the wife, as the high school where she is an administrator only uses the Dark Side and she needs a computer at home when she brings work home.

So, I was QUITE displeased, first on a personal level, when forced to call Dell Support and find myself attempting to have a technical conversation with someone in Calcutta. Then I started reflecting on Michael Dell’s commitment to the country which gave him his opportunity to get filthy rich. He HAS NONE! HE is a BAD AMERICAN! As are the other myriad business executives who move American jobs off shore, chasing the almighty dollar. It p*sses me off . . and you misread (again) what I said.

In FACT, when it came time to upgrade computers for my wife, I elected to eschew Dell and bought a Gateway. SO, Michael Dell’s un-American decision to take jobs to India cost him any further business from ME. If all consumers would react to taking our jobs off shore in a principled manner, by taking their dollars somewhere else, maybe these turkeys would get the message?

IF you had been reading what I have been saying, you would KNOW that I do NOT have a dog in this fight. I flew airplanes from age 14 to age 60 and I now collect two very large retirement checks +SS, which are NOT going to go down. In fact I wish my airline check had the nice COLA built in that my Navy and SS ones do!

MY involvement is to simply show displeasure at the way the industry is going and I agree with KB that aspiring pilots, who will do anything, even if it means hurting the industry, ARE part of the problem.
OH? HOW idiotic! I guess that means that the “oldest” profession should be the most respected and highest paid? I will tell a hooker that, if I ever have the opportunity to run into one <G>

Do you have to have everything spelled out for you for it to sink in? The 3 professions (regardless of how long they have been around) ARE quite similar! It takes smarts, dedication and lots of thankless, grueling hard work to make the grade in all of them. In fact, the average airline pilot likely has MORE education requirements and years of training and experience than an Intern. I know I had much more than the equivalent (education, Ratings, building time, checking out in ‘types’, recurrent) of a M.D. when I achieved the ATP. AND a pilot, over his career, has infinitely more lives in his hands than any doctor ever will.

If individuals do not believe they are at least as good, if not better than the highest paid of professions, then I guess they don’t deserve the big bucks. When I look at my productivity for my employer, the physically detrimental back side of the clock flying the job required, my loyalty and pride in getting the boxes where they were going in a safe and expeditions manner, I KNOW I was worth $250,000+ per year. Didn’t get paid that much, but I was certainly worth it. The folks still flying today are worth it too, they just have to figure out how to negotiate that.