Great Lakes
05-28-2012 | 11:31 AM
#181
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Left or Right, Whatev'
Some history is in order to show the absurdity of the criticism of Great Lakes and any opinion that one regional is better than another in the large scheme of things.
Until about ten years ago and prior, many regionals, ACA, SkyWest and Express Jet, for instance required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a Metro, 1900 or J32. There were some exceptions if your log met certain times where that fee could be waved, but for many, they had to pony up. American Eagle and Mesa were two that I know never charged that fee, not that they were any better per-se, you had to pay in other ways.
Great Lakes does represent an anachronism from previous times and as the market progresses they will more than likely adjust their hiring and pilot retention practices. The people that manage and staff Great Lakes read the same papers, industry news and more than likely forums that you do, so none of this is a revelation to anybody. The brutal truth is that as long as they are still able to staff the airline, why should they change anything? And before you all pat yourself on the back that you are somehow better than a pilot who chooses to fly for them, understand that the last ten years have been a true aberration from the normal status quo. To wit, Delta Air Lines TA about to be voted on. A second or third year FO on a 737 will make more than a capped out, 20 year SkyWest or Republic captain makes. Where back in 1992, a United 727 made two or three flights from a hub to a second tier city, with the CA pulling down 200+K a year, the FO was pulling $170+K a year and the FE was just below that, in 1990 dollars too. Now a SkyWest or Republic crew congratulates themselves on their good fortune to fly that route with wages that are a fraction of that, and in todays' dollars! From that perspective they are in the same boat as Great Lakes, only with false sense of superiority.
Then you ask, whose fault is this? This finger pointing that it is Great lakes pilots lowering that bar? Express Jet pilots flying old 727 routes? How about the previous generation senior, Major pilots who allowed the scope to put RJ’s on those routes and the previous management that took advantage human nature to lower the wages under this perception of “express” service with the same livery and tickets sold but now flown by cheaper pilots. Oh I know, it's ALPA's fault, that's nice to wrap our minds around, but didn't they have to broker the best deal possible within an unsympathetic political climate, management who held the cards using post 9/11 and fuel prices among a myriad of other reasons to argue for lost pay and benefits, and a desperate pilot group made up of soon to be retired pilots who didn't plan for anything other than their pension and junior pilots who were or were on the brink of furlough? So it looks like it’s our entire fault and to single out any one group, ignores the self interest in all the other groups trying to be successful with this career. But the one exception is that the Great Lakes pilots don’t have any illusions that they are anything but regional/commuter pilots, unlike other groups who again, maintain a dillusion that they are something more than commuter pilots, but “hey, it’s glass and the engines are under the wing, or if you squint, it’s almost as big as a DC-9”.
If history is any indication of the future, the other airlines will more than likely follow Delta's TA to one degree or other and the historic pecking order of the airlines to pursue for a career will be re-established, with the Major Passenger carriers on top followed by the Nationals, and Cargo, corporate and then a long step down to the Regionals/Commuters. There is still a lot of ground to cover, but Delta's shot across the bow is a welcome sign of things to come.
Until about ten years ago and prior, many regionals, ACA, SkyWest and Express Jet, for instance required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a Metro, 1900 or J32. There were some exceptions if your log met certain times where that fee could be waved, but for many, they had to pony up. American Eagle and Mesa were two that I know never charged that fee, not that they were any better per-se, you had to pay in other ways.
Great Lakes does represent an anachronism from previous times and as the market progresses they will more than likely adjust their hiring and pilot retention practices. The people that manage and staff Great Lakes read the same papers, industry news and more than likely forums that you do, so none of this is a revelation to anybody. The brutal truth is that as long as they are still able to staff the airline, why should they change anything? And before you all pat yourself on the back that you are somehow better than a pilot who chooses to fly for them, understand that the last ten years have been a true aberration from the normal status quo. To wit, Delta Air Lines TA about to be voted on. A second or third year FO on a 737 will make more than a capped out, 20 year SkyWest or Republic captain makes. Where back in 1992, a United 727 made two or three flights from a hub to a second tier city, with the CA pulling down 200+K a year, the FO was pulling $170+K a year and the FE was just below that, in 1990 dollars too. Now a SkyWest or Republic crew congratulates themselves on their good fortune to fly that route with wages that are a fraction of that, and in todays' dollars! From that perspective they are in the same boat as Great Lakes, only with false sense of superiority.
Then you ask, whose fault is this? This finger pointing that it is Great lakes pilots lowering that bar? Express Jet pilots flying old 727 routes? How about the previous generation senior, Major pilots who allowed the scope to put RJ’s on those routes and the previous management that took advantage human nature to lower the wages under this perception of “express” service with the same livery and tickets sold but now flown by cheaper pilots. Oh I know, it's ALPA's fault, that's nice to wrap our minds around, but didn't they have to broker the best deal possible within an unsympathetic political climate, management who held the cards using post 9/11 and fuel prices among a myriad of other reasons to argue for lost pay and benefits, and a desperate pilot group made up of soon to be retired pilots who didn't plan for anything other than their pension and junior pilots who were or were on the brink of furlough? So it looks like it’s our entire fault and to single out any one group, ignores the self interest in all the other groups trying to be successful with this career. But the one exception is that the Great Lakes pilots don’t have any illusions that they are anything but regional/commuter pilots, unlike other groups who again, maintain a dillusion that they are something more than commuter pilots, but “hey, it’s glass and the engines are under the wing, or if you squint, it’s almost as big as a DC-9”.
If history is any indication of the future, the other airlines will more than likely follow Delta's TA to one degree or other and the historic pecking order of the airlines to pursue for a career will be re-established, with the Major Passenger carriers on top followed by the Nationals, and Cargo, corporate and then a long step down to the Regionals/Commuters. There is still a lot of ground to cover, but Delta's shot across the bow is a welcome sign of things to come.
05-28-2012 | 01:04 PM
#182
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
From: B1900 CA
Awesome, so we're shooting ourselves in the foot again and keeping the bar low.
If all it's good for is the "1000pic" and not as a reputable airline and company, just don't be surprised when people call it what it is. By taking a job there, you're perpetuating the idea that regionals can dangle the idea of flying for a major airline to attract pilots at poverty levels, as majors continue to condense down/farm out flying and there are far more pilots wanting jobs than could be employed at those majors. Do people have any self-respect these days? I hope you realize the industry has significantly changed and shifted since your mentors made it to their coveted 777 and A380 international positions...
If all it's good for is the "1000pic" and not as a reputable airline and company, just don't be surprised when people call it what it is. By taking a job there, you're perpetuating the idea that regionals can dangle the idea of flying for a major airline to attract pilots at poverty levels, as majors continue to condense down/farm out flying and there are far more pilots wanting jobs than could be employed at those majors. Do people have any self-respect these days? I hope you realize the industry has significantly changed and shifted since your mentors made it to their coveted 777 and A380 international positions...
You need to be asking every RJ driver out there what their level of self respect is, not some beech driver (and bros) flying to a town no one has ever heard of!
05-28-2012 | 01:13 PM
#183
On Reserve
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: BE1900 FO
Some history is in order to show the absurdity of the criticism of Great Lakes and any opinion that one regional is better than another in the large scheme of things.
Until about ten years ago and prior, many regionals, ACA, SkyWest and Express Jet, for instance required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a Metro, 1900 or J32. There were some exceptions if your log met certain times where that fee could be waved, but for many, they had to pony up. American Eagle and Mesa were two that I know never charged that fee, not that they were any better per-se, you had to pay in other ways.
Great Lakes does represent an anachronism from previous times and as the market progresses they will more than likely adjust their hiring and pilot retention practices. The people that manage and staff Great Lakes read the same papers, industry news and more than likely forums that you do, so none of this is a revelation to anybody. The brutal truth is that as long as they are still able to staff the airline, why should they change anything? And before you all pat yourself on the back that you are somehow better than a pilot who chooses to fly for them, understand that the last ten years have been a true aberration from the normal status quo. To wit, Delta Air Lines TA about to be voted on. A second or third year FO on a 737 will make more than a capped out, 20 year SkyWest or Republic captain makes. Where back in 1992, a United 727 made two or three flights from a hub to a second tier city, with the CA pulling down 200+K a year, the FO was pulling $170+K a year and the FE was just below that, in 1990 dollars too. Now a SkyWest or Republic crew congratulates themselves on their good fortune to fly that route with wages that are a fraction of that, and in todays' dollars! From that perspective they are in the same boat as Great Lakes, only with false sense of superiority.
Then you ask, whose fault is this? This finger pointing that it is Great lakes pilots lowering that bar? Express Jet pilots flying old 727 routes? How about the previous generation senior, Major pilots who allowed the scope to put RJ’s on those routes and the previous management that took advantage human nature to lower the wages under this perception of “express” service with the same livery and tickets sold but now flown by cheaper pilots. Oh I know, it's ALPA's fault, that's nice to wrap our minds around, but didn't they have to broker the best deal possible within an unsympathetic political climate, management who held the cards using post 9/11 and fuel prices among a myriad of other reasons to argue for lost pay and benefits, and a desperate pilot group made up of soon to be retired pilots who didn't plan for anything other than their pension and junior pilots who were or were on the brink of furlough? So it looks like it’s our entire fault and to single out any one group, ignores the self interest in all the other groups trying to be successful with this career. But the one exception is that the Great Lakes pilots don’t have any illusions that they are anything but regional/commuter pilots, unlike other groups who again, maintain a dillusion that they are something more than commuter pilots, but “hey, it’s glass and the engines are under the wing, or if you squint, it’s almost as big as a DC-9”.
If history is any indication of the future, the other airlines will more than likely follow Delta's TA to one degree or other and the historic pecking order of the airlines to pursue for a career will be re-established, with the Major Passenger carriers on top followed by the Nationals, and Cargo, corporate and then a long step down to the Regionals/Commuters. There is still a lot of ground to cover, but Delta's shot across the bow is a welcome sign of things to come.
Until about ten years ago and prior, many regionals, ACA, SkyWest and Express Jet, for instance required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a Metro, 1900 or J32. There were some exceptions if your log met certain times where that fee could be waved, but for many, they had to pony up. American Eagle and Mesa were two that I know never charged that fee, not that they were any better per-se, you had to pay in other ways.
Great Lakes does represent an anachronism from previous times and as the market progresses they will more than likely adjust their hiring and pilot retention practices. The people that manage and staff Great Lakes read the same papers, industry news and more than likely forums that you do, so none of this is a revelation to anybody. The brutal truth is that as long as they are still able to staff the airline, why should they change anything? And before you all pat yourself on the back that you are somehow better than a pilot who chooses to fly for them, understand that the last ten years have been a true aberration from the normal status quo. To wit, Delta Air Lines TA about to be voted on. A second or third year FO on a 737 will make more than a capped out, 20 year SkyWest or Republic captain makes. Where back in 1992, a United 727 made two or three flights from a hub to a second tier city, with the CA pulling down 200+K a year, the FO was pulling $170+K a year and the FE was just below that, in 1990 dollars too. Now a SkyWest or Republic crew congratulates themselves on their good fortune to fly that route with wages that are a fraction of that, and in todays' dollars! From that perspective they are in the same boat as Great Lakes, only with false sense of superiority.
Then you ask, whose fault is this? This finger pointing that it is Great lakes pilots lowering that bar? Express Jet pilots flying old 727 routes? How about the previous generation senior, Major pilots who allowed the scope to put RJ’s on those routes and the previous management that took advantage human nature to lower the wages under this perception of “express” service with the same livery and tickets sold but now flown by cheaper pilots. Oh I know, it's ALPA's fault, that's nice to wrap our minds around, but didn't they have to broker the best deal possible within an unsympathetic political climate, management who held the cards using post 9/11 and fuel prices among a myriad of other reasons to argue for lost pay and benefits, and a desperate pilot group made up of soon to be retired pilots who didn't plan for anything other than their pension and junior pilots who were or were on the brink of furlough? So it looks like it’s our entire fault and to single out any one group, ignores the self interest in all the other groups trying to be successful with this career. But the one exception is that the Great Lakes pilots don’t have any illusions that they are anything but regional/commuter pilots, unlike other groups who again, maintain a dillusion that they are something more than commuter pilots, but “hey, it’s glass and the engines are under the wing, or if you squint, it’s almost as big as a DC-9”.
If history is any indication of the future, the other airlines will more than likely follow Delta's TA to one degree or other and the historic pecking order of the airlines to pursue for a career will be re-established, with the Major Passenger carriers on top followed by the Nationals, and Cargo, corporate and then a long step down to the Regionals/Commuters. There is still a lot of ground to cover, but Delta's shot across the bow is a welcome sign of things to come.
05-28-2012 | 08:22 PM
#184
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 2,035
Likes: 0
Some history is in order to show the absurdity of the criticism of Great Lakes and any opinion that one regional is better than another in the large scheme of things.
Until about ten years ago and prior, many regionals, ACA, SkyWest and Express Jet, for instance required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a Metro, 1900 or J32. There were some exceptions if your log met certain times where that fee could be waved, but for many, they had to pony up. American Eagle and Mesa were two that I know never charged that fee, not that they were any better per-se, you had to pay in other ways.
Great Lakes does represent an anachronism from previous times and as the market progresses they will more than likely adjust their hiring and pilot retention practices. The people that manage and staff Great Lakes read the same papers, industry news and more than likely forums that you do, so none of this is a revelation to anybody. The brutal truth is that as long as they are still able to staff the airline, why should they change anything? And before you all pat yourself on the back that you are somehow better than a pilot who chooses to fly for them, understand that the last ten years have been a true aberration from the normal status quo. To wit, Delta Air Lines TA about to be voted on. A second or third year FO on a 737 will make more than a capped out, 20 year SkyWest or Republic captain makes. Where back in 1992, a United 727 made two or three flights from a hub to a second tier city, with the CA pulling down 200+K a year, the FO was pulling $170+K a year and the FE was just below that, in 1990 dollars too. Now a SkyWest or Republic crew congratulates themselves on their good fortune to fly that route with wages that are a fraction of that, and in todays' dollars! From that perspective they are in the same boat as Great Lakes, only with false sense of superiority.
Then you ask, whose fault is this? This finger pointing that it is Great lakes pilots lowering that bar? Express Jet pilots flying old 727 routes? How about the previous generation senior, Major pilots who allowed the scope to put RJ’s on those routes and the previous management that took advantage human nature to lower the wages under this perception of “express” service with the same livery and tickets sold but now flown by cheaper pilots. Oh I know, it's ALPA's fault, that's nice to wrap our minds around, but didn't they have to broker the best deal possible within an unsympathetic political climate, management who held the cards using post 9/11 and fuel prices among a myriad of other reasons to argue for lost pay and benefits, and a desperate pilot group made up of soon to be retired pilots who didn't plan for anything other than their pension and junior pilots who were or were on the brink of furlough? So it looks like it’s our entire fault and to single out any one group, ignores the self interest in all the other groups trying to be successful with this career. But the one exception is that the Great Lakes pilots don’t have any illusions that they are anything but regional/commuter pilots, unlike other groups who again, maintain a dillusion that they are something more than commuter pilots, but “hey, it’s glass and the engines are under the wing, or if you squint, it’s almost as big as a DC-9”.
If history is any indication of the future, the other airlines will more than likely follow Delta's TA to one degree or other and the historic pecking order of the airlines to pursue for a career will be re-established, with the Major Passenger carriers on top followed by the Nationals, and Cargo, corporate and then a long step down to the Regionals/Commuters. There is still a lot of ground to cover, but Delta's shot across the bow is a welcome sign of things to come.
Until about ten years ago and prior, many regionals, ACA, SkyWest and Express Jet, for instance required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a Metro, 1900 or J32. There were some exceptions if your log met certain times where that fee could be waved, but for many, they had to pony up. American Eagle and Mesa were two that I know never charged that fee, not that they were any better per-se, you had to pay in other ways.
Great Lakes does represent an anachronism from previous times and as the market progresses they will more than likely adjust their hiring and pilot retention practices. The people that manage and staff Great Lakes read the same papers, industry news and more than likely forums that you do, so none of this is a revelation to anybody. The brutal truth is that as long as they are still able to staff the airline, why should they change anything? And before you all pat yourself on the back that you are somehow better than a pilot who chooses to fly for them, understand that the last ten years have been a true aberration from the normal status quo. To wit, Delta Air Lines TA about to be voted on. A second or third year FO on a 737 will make more than a capped out, 20 year SkyWest or Republic captain makes. Where back in 1992, a United 727 made two or three flights from a hub to a second tier city, with the CA pulling down 200+K a year, the FO was pulling $170+K a year and the FE was just below that, in 1990 dollars too. Now a SkyWest or Republic crew congratulates themselves on their good fortune to fly that route with wages that are a fraction of that, and in todays' dollars! From that perspective they are in the same boat as Great Lakes, only with false sense of superiority.
Then you ask, whose fault is this? This finger pointing that it is Great lakes pilots lowering that bar? Express Jet pilots flying old 727 routes? How about the previous generation senior, Major pilots who allowed the scope to put RJ’s on those routes and the previous management that took advantage human nature to lower the wages under this perception of “express” service with the same livery and tickets sold but now flown by cheaper pilots. Oh I know, it's ALPA's fault, that's nice to wrap our minds around, but didn't they have to broker the best deal possible within an unsympathetic political climate, management who held the cards using post 9/11 and fuel prices among a myriad of other reasons to argue for lost pay and benefits, and a desperate pilot group made up of soon to be retired pilots who didn't plan for anything other than their pension and junior pilots who were or were on the brink of furlough? So it looks like it’s our entire fault and to single out any one group, ignores the self interest in all the other groups trying to be successful with this career. But the one exception is that the Great Lakes pilots don’t have any illusions that they are anything but regional/commuter pilots, unlike other groups who again, maintain a dillusion that they are something more than commuter pilots, but “hey, it’s glass and the engines are under the wing, or if you squint, it’s almost as big as a DC-9”.
If history is any indication of the future, the other airlines will more than likely follow Delta's TA to one degree or other and the historic pecking order of the airlines to pursue for a career will be re-established, with the Major Passenger carriers on top followed by the Nationals, and Cargo, corporate and then a long step down to the Regionals/Commuters. There is still a lot of ground to cover, but Delta's shot across the bow is a welcome sign of things to come.
Might want to work on your so called "facts"... SkyWest NEVER "required a pilot to pay $10,000+ to sit in ground school and make 12-14K first year to throw gear in a metro"! NOT "until about 10 years ago and prior", not at any point in the history of the company!
05-28-2012 | 08:57 PM
#185
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,166
Likes: 91
From: Volleyball Player
As they attempt to renegotiate their leases again and have aircraft taken back, they are the poster-child for a business that should simply "go away". I'm sure HB didn't default on their payments and go into bankruptcy "because of GL", but again, dragging down the entire industry and having to renegotiate, I have to wonder if it didn't help put some of the nails in the coffin, as GL has simply been pumped up by non-EAS government pork as much of their business. I never want people to lose their jobs, but this is one that makes it worse for everyone else out there, it's not that they earn 1 or 2 dollars less per hour, it's the 13K...I mean seriously, how do you even defend that? That's less than half of what I started out at. That's pretty blatant "one regional worse than the others". How much worse can it get?
05-28-2012 | 09:08 PM
#186
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
From: A320 Left
This may be true, but a Great Lakes pilot has never taken a job from a mainline pilot. I believe Skywest pilots have done quite a bit of that.
05-29-2012 | 04:16 AM
#187
Banned
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,071
Likes: 0
SkyWest has given jobs to mainline pilots when they were thrown out on their a$$... Watch it bud, Great Lakes is a dying airline. How many 1500 ATP kids are gonna walk through those doors in the next year with low pay and no compensation in training? Especially since EAS will be going bye bye. All for BE1900 PIC, come on man. You can fly skydivers in a BE1900 it's defined as a commuter category airplane. A wise man chooses an airline he can live with IF he's stuck there for any duration longer than expected. Oh, the whole 65 thing will be going up to 67, so don't bank on a hiring boom anytime soon.
05-29-2012 | 04:59 AM
#188
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,201
Likes: 32
From: 4A2FU
05-29-2012 | 05:30 AM
#189
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 254
Likes: 2
I was complaining about how they handle those with the passengers. It seems like some of those posts are justifying treating passengers like cr@p and not doing the right things. I'm not talking about magically having the aircraft always working, I'm talking about taking care of the customers, reassuring them, apologizing when necessary, not treating them like cattle when they've been told to "line up" for the 3rd time in a row.
It's pretty amazing that you're still torqued off about this whole thing. Maybe you should let us live our lives and you live yours? We'll ask your opinion when we want it.
05-29-2012 | 05:49 AM
#190
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 929
Likes: 0
From: e190
Have fun getting your 1000 pic but there's little it will do for you. You will need 7000+ tt and about 2500 pic to be hireable at any major in the next 3-5 years. While you were learning to fly there were literally thousands of guys stuck at regionals with thousands of hours of pic time. Don't go somewhere for a quick upgrade right now. Go somewhere that you can enjoy life a little. No pay, no qol, no time off... You're in your 20's and your wasting it chasing a career that is a known heartbreaker. There is more to life then airplanes.
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