TSA continues it's Reign of Terror on flight crews.
07-22-2008 | 06:45 PM
#41
Rubber dogsh#t out of HKG
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 638
Likes: 2
From: Senior Seat Cushion Tester Extraordinaire
issued your crew ID? Possibly related story; Mesa's illustrious CEO Jon Ornstein was a client at a fractional I used to work for. His "airline ID" was not acceptable per FAR 135 that required a government issued ID. The funny part was the look on his face when we told him the that his Mesa ID did not suffice!
07-22-2008 | 06:46 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
From: Waiting for retirements
Yes, that is right based upon one comment that you do not agree with, I am not a pilot. The only thing I can glean from your post is that you're not intelligent.
You can disagree with me all you want and you can rant and flame about TSA all day long. I never said I think TSA is perfect at securing our airports, I am simply saying that just because you are inconvenienced sometimes while going to, or from, work doesn't mean they should stop doing something.
You are all pilots, how do you like it when people tell you how to do your job? I am not talking about someone who is in our chosen profession giving you solid critical advice, but how about when Joe Schmo makes a comment about one of your landings on a particularly gusty day? You may see a bunch of guys/girls with GEDs at the scanners but you should realize that there are people in TSA who are a hell of a lot smarter than you at protecting airports/airplanes/the public. I know it is a shock isn't it. Now Before you all open up with both barrels I am not giving TSA a ringing endorsement I am merely pointing out that you, and I as well, don't have the fullest of pictures on what it is they are facing day to day. We do not have to deal with the same set of problems they do and if you think that securing a piece of real estate as big as an airport is simple your sadly mistaken.
Someone asked "Common bro are you actually saying that you do not trust 100% of your peers?" Well bro I spent 11 years as a Marine there are a few people I trust 100%. You are not one of them. The guy who I have never flown with and who I know nothing about personally but who I have to go fly a 4 day trip with is not one of them. That is not to say I go in expecting everyone to do something crazy but I don't live in a world where I am naive enough to believe everyone is inherently good. Some people jeopardize there own security, and mine and passengers, without even thinking they are doing it.
As for the guy who isn't worried because it is a 1/1000 thing. I hope your not at work on that day when the odds catchup because we relaxed.
just my 2 cents...go ahead and flame away.
You can disagree with me all you want and you can rant and flame about TSA all day long. I never said I think TSA is perfect at securing our airports, I am simply saying that just because you are inconvenienced sometimes while going to, or from, work doesn't mean they should stop doing something.
You are all pilots, how do you like it when people tell you how to do your job? I am not talking about someone who is in our chosen profession giving you solid critical advice, but how about when Joe Schmo makes a comment about one of your landings on a particularly gusty day? You may see a bunch of guys/girls with GEDs at the scanners but you should realize that there are people in TSA who are a hell of a lot smarter than you at protecting airports/airplanes/the public. I know it is a shock isn't it. Now Before you all open up with both barrels I am not giving TSA a ringing endorsement I am merely pointing out that you, and I as well, don't have the fullest of pictures on what it is they are facing day to day. We do not have to deal with the same set of problems they do and if you think that securing a piece of real estate as big as an airport is simple your sadly mistaken.
Someone asked "Common bro are you actually saying that you do not trust 100% of your peers?" Well bro I spent 11 years as a Marine there are a few people I trust 100%. You are not one of them. The guy who I have never flown with and who I know nothing about personally but who I have to go fly a 4 day trip with is not one of them. That is not to say I go in expecting everyone to do something crazy but I don't live in a world where I am naive enough to believe everyone is inherently good. Some people jeopardize there own security, and mine and passengers, without even thinking they are doing it.
As for the guy who isn't worried because it is a 1/1000 thing. I hope your not at work on that day when the odds catchup because we relaxed.
just my 2 cents...go ahead and flame away.
07-22-2008 | 06:49 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 653
Likes: 0
From: MD11 F/O
Longboarder:
"You may see a bunch of guys/girls with GEDs at the scanners but you should realize that there are people in TSA who are a hell of a lot smarter than you at protecting airports/airplanes/the public.
just my 2 cents...go ahead and flame away.[/QUOTE]
OK
No, I see the bottom part of a huge, wasteful and self serving bureaucracy. Please tell me how the top bureaucrats were picked. At least do a little research and then you will know they were horse show executives or *** kissers deluxe and had some powerful friends. Please tell me how much the balloon arches at their first executive slap each other on the back party cost. Balloon arches are critical to national security. They were handing out bonuses for taking my nail clippers away. I can't carry a golf club now but there is a crash ax in my cockpit. Oh, and I used to to be trusted with nukes but now I have to take off my shoes before I ride on a airliner. Did you read the story about them not letting a former Governor on an airliner because HIS Medal of Honor had sharp edges? If you want to defend them, please show me some accomplishments. Never mistake motion for accomplishment. In seven years they have caught how many terrorist?
PS Thanks for the 11 years of real service to the country.
"You may see a bunch of guys/girls with GEDs at the scanners but you should realize that there are people in TSA who are a hell of a lot smarter than you at protecting airports/airplanes/the public.
just my 2 cents...go ahead and flame away.[/QUOTE]
OK
No, I see the bottom part of a huge, wasteful and self serving bureaucracy. Please tell me how the top bureaucrats were picked. At least do a little research and then you will know they were horse show executives or *** kissers deluxe and had some powerful friends. Please tell me how much the balloon arches at their first executive slap each other on the back party cost. Balloon arches are critical to national security. They were handing out bonuses for taking my nail clippers away. I can't carry a golf club now but there is a crash ax in my cockpit. Oh, and I used to to be trusted with nukes but now I have to take off my shoes before I ride on a airliner. Did you read the story about them not letting a former Governor on an airliner because HIS Medal of Honor had sharp edges? If you want to defend them, please show me some accomplishments. Never mistake motion for accomplishment. In seven years they have caught how many terrorist?
PS Thanks for the 11 years of real service to the country.
Last edited by MD11HOG; 07-22-2008 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Title
07-22-2008 | 07:11 PM
#44
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,143
Likes: 801
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
I'm surprised that no one has used the example of FedEx 705 yet on this thread. For those of you not familiar, you can read about it here:
FedEx Flight 705 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sure this was before the days of the TSA, and it was also at a place where the TSA does not screen (FedEx), but it could happen today because that guy would have been in CASS, giving him access to the cockpit anytime he wanted the jumpseat.
On a side note, one option to sidestep the harassment of the TSA would be to become an FFDO.
FedEx Flight 705 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sure this was before the days of the TSA, and it was also at a place where the TSA does not screen (FedEx), but it could happen today because that guy would have been in CASS, giving him access to the cockpit anytime he wanted the jumpseat.
On a side note, one option to sidestep the harassment of the TSA would be to become an FFDO.
The guy was not clinically insane, so his ame would not likely have caught it.
He did not bring a gun, but recreational gear/tools which was legal, but had weapons potential (just like boxcutters).
Remember, his apparent intent was to crash the airplane, making it look like an accident...a gun would have probably left evidence. His motivation seemed to be an honorable death with no one the wiser. He was trying to avoid living in disgrace after getting fired for lying on his resume (he was actually an ex-navy pilot).
You can't forsee ALL possible circumstances.
07-22-2008 | 07:15 PM
#45
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: 747 FO
07-22-2008 | 07:22 PM
#46
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
From: 747 FO
No, I see the bottom part of a huge, wasteful and self serving bureaucracy. Please tell me how the top bureaucrats were picked. At least do a little research and then you will know they were horse show executives or *** kissers deluxe and had some powerful friends. Please tell me how much the balloon arches at their first executive slap each other on the back party cost. Balloon arches are critical to national security. They were handing out bonuses for taking my nail clippers away. I can't carry a golf club now but there is a crash ax in my cockpit. Oh, and I used to to be trusted with nukes but now I have to take off my shoes before I ride on a airliner. Did you read the story about them not letting a former Governor on an airliner because HIS Medal of Honor had sharp edges? If you want to defend them, please show me some accomplishments. Never mistake motion for accomplishment. In seven years they have caught how many terrorist?
PS Thanks for the 11 years of real service to the country.[/quote]
Okay I will not even attempt to argue political appointments with you or try and justify what are obviously asinine examples of leadership/decision making. That being said this is a snapshot of this week off the TSA propaganda site, oops I mean website:
TSA Week at a Glance (July 14, 2008 - July 20, 2008)
10 passengers were arrested due to suspicious behavior or fraudulent travel documents
22 firearms found at checkpoints
3 artfully concealed prohibited items found at checkpoints
12 incidents that involved a checkpoint closure, terminal evacuation or sterile area breach
I would call that a deterrent if nothing else.I am trying to point out, and failing to do so I guess, that even though TSA may not be doing a great job at it airport security is still important and being inconvenienced randomly is small in the bigger picture of things.
PS thank you for your service as well.
07-22-2008 | 07:52 PM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 937
Likes: 0
From: 747 FO
.
07-22-2008 | 10:08 PM
#49
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
So your gonna try to tell me what I did or did not see. Wow.
Have you been to JFK and seen the turn-styles at ramp level? Well, I have as I used to walk by them on the way into the terminal, so i think I have a bit of an idea what does and does not happen there. Apparently more so than you.
I never said I had a front row seat at the SIDA access point,nor do I want one. The things that happen at you station are indicative to YOUR station and your station only. I do know for a fact there are some airports where the CSA can bypass screening altogether if they have a SIDA badge. Which is the way it was for ALL SIDA badge holders before the invent of the TSA.
Is this what it is boiling down too, a CSA agent saying I have it rougher than you because I get screened X times a day? If so you are missing the point of the argument. They are screening the wrong people is the argument. As in screening the flight crews. A waste of money and rescources.
Have you been to JFK and seen the turn-styles at ramp level? Well, I have as I used to walk by them on the way into the terminal, so i think I have a bit of an idea what does and does not happen there. Apparently more so than you.
I never said I had a front row seat at the SIDA access point,nor do I want one. The things that happen at you station are indicative to YOUR station and your station only. I do know for a fact there are some airports where the CSA can bypass screening altogether if they have a SIDA badge. Which is the way it was for ALL SIDA badge holders before the invent of the TSA.
Is this what it is boiling down too, a CSA agent saying I have it rougher than you because I get screened X times a day? If so you are missing the point of the argument. They are screening the wrong people is the argument. As in screening the flight crews. A waste of money and rescources.
2) Ok holier than though pilot man, walking by the turn-style on your way into the airport doesn't mean that TSA doesn't sometimes screen people using that door. The OP did say when he got screened it was random.
3) ACEAV8R said they had seen the same random screenings for airport employees at other airports that they had TDYed at, not just their home airport.
4) It didn't appear to me that they were trying to say that CSAs have it rougher than you just pointing out that CSAs and RAMPERS do get screened and do not have un-checked access to the aircraft. The OP said he was screened when coming through a door from OPS into the terminal....this random checkpoint was set up for all people using that door not just crew...they can't just say oh well you are flight crew we don't need to screen you. The reason for being screened when going from a SIDA area into the terminal is the same reason you can't get a checked bag until you get to baggage claim, some items that can be checked (ie guns and ammunition) can't be brought into the the terminal.
5) Why should a member of a flight crew not get screened but a ramper should? Everyone who enters a secure area should be subject to screening. Although I agree some TSAers probably aren't very qualified to do it. You have more access to the aircraft than a ramper does (no body is going to tell you you can't climb into the cargo bin durring your walk around if you wanted to and you have access to the cockpit even if you are riding in the back on your own metal...you have a cockpit key).
I'm not trying to start another battle between CSAs and Pilots I just think you need to get your facts straight before you come on here and bash somebody for correcting you
07-22-2008 | 10:58 PM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
From: 737/FO
OK
That being said this is a snapshot of this week off the TSA propaganda site, oops I mean website:
TSA Week at a Glance (July 14, 2008 - July 20, 2008)
I am trying to point out, and failing to do so I guess, that even though TSA may not be doing a great job at it airport security is still important and being inconvenienced randomly is small in the bigger picture of things.
That being said this is a snapshot of this week off the TSA propaganda site, oops I mean website:
TSA Week at a Glance (July 14, 2008 - July 20, 2008)
10 passengers were arrested due to suspicious behavior or fraudulent travel documents
22 firearms found at checkpoints
3 artfully concealed prohibited items found at checkpoints
12 incidents that involved a checkpoint closure, terminal evacuation or sterile area breach
I would call that a deterrent if nothing else.I am trying to point out, and failing to do so I guess, that even though TSA may not be doing a great job at it airport security is still important and being inconvenienced randomly is small in the bigger picture of things.
According to bts.gov (extrapolated from Apr 08), almost 15 million revenue emplanemants occurred in that week. Do you really think that 47 incidents (some over lapping) justify thousands of TSA harrassing pilots, CSAs, rampers, etc? Excuse my math but that's about 1 incident in 320,000.
By the logic that you are using, Homeland Security should have check points set up on Interstate Highways to moderately inconvenience the masses to catch the few that try to get by. They should also, randomly, inspect state and federal vehicles in case they are trying to use their status to get something by.
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