Up and Out Policies: Upgrade
#101
Your previous post about TW was technically legal but in very poor taste...I think it says a lot about someone when he kicks a man who's down
#102
This is definiley the part that I'm getting stuck on. What is the scenario in 11(c) that isn't covered by the first time going from a FO to CA in the quote above? It certainly sounds like if an FO is going from a EMB to CRJ FO and he fails then he gets to go back to being an EMB FO. Correct?
USMCFLYR
I'm not sure if the SKW policy is particularly well written, but NOBODY here mis-understands the up-or-out policy. I think they remind you before you commit to upgrade training. Most folks knew about before we took the job in the first place.
#103
[QUOTE=de727ups;485771Here's an unanswered question. Besides AA, who else has this policy? Anybody? Why would Skywest pilots support a policy that seems to be quite rare in the industry?[/QUOTE]
Eagle also has that policy.
Just a lesson for everyone else. The questions TW got shouldn't be on a type ride. In TW's case, he was also getting his ATP. In the eyes of an examiner, you are getting two check rides. Answer some ATP questions then some a/c specific ones. Those questions were legit for the ATP certificate. If you don't want to run the risk, go to a weekend warrior course and get your ATP before you go for a type ride.
Eagle also has that policy.
Just a lesson for everyone else. The questions TW got shouldn't be on a type ride. In TW's case, he was also getting his ATP. In the eyes of an examiner, you are getting two check rides. Answer some ATP questions then some a/c specific ones. Those questions were legit for the ATP certificate. If you don't want to run the risk, go to a weekend warrior course and get your ATP before you go for a type ride.
#104
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 119
TW and I are at similar stages in life, and in my opinion the important issues here are loyalty and respect, as opposed to the technicalities of "upgrade" vs "transition" (if we were 22 year-olds fresh out of 'Riddle, then the situation might be different). Loyalty is a two-way street, and personally I would rather work as a crack-wh*** than give that kind of organization the satisfaction of begging for my old job back! Also, "when one door closes another one opens." For example, I know of a job possibility that I told TW about (although I don't know if he'll pursue it) that doesn't involve growing a long beard and wearing a turban.
#105
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Satan's Camaro
Posts: 397
While the contract language may seem ambiguous, unfortunately, the terms and definitions within come straight from the FARs:
For your benefit, I've included a snippet about what a "group" is (as referenced in part 1 in the previous quote):
Like I said, there's unfortunately not a whole lot of gray area in terms of what counts as "transition" and "upgrade". Because turboprop (I.E. EMB120) is not in the same training "group" as a turbojet (I.E. CRJ), you must use the "upgrade" phraseology instead of the more lenient "transition" phraseology.
FAR 121.433
(1) Crewmembers who have qualified and served as a crewmember on another type airplane of the same group may serve in the same crewmember capacity upon completion of transition training as provided in §121.415.
(2) Crewmembers who have qualified and served as second in command or flight engineer on a particular type airplane may serve as pilot in command or second in command, respectively, upon completion of upgrade training for that airplane as provided in §121.415.
(1) Crewmembers who have qualified and served as a crewmember on another type airplane of the same group may serve in the same crewmember capacity upon completion of transition training as provided in §121.415.
(2) Crewmembers who have qualified and served as second in command or flight engineer on a particular type airplane may serve as pilot in command or second in command, respectively, upon completion of upgrade training for that airplane as provided in §121.415.
FAR 121.424
(1) Group I airplanes—
(i) Reciprocating powered. Pilot in command, 10 hours; second in command, 6 hours; and
(ii) Turbopropeller powered. Pilot in command, 15 hours; second in command, 7 hours.
(2) Group II airplanes. Pilot in command, 20 hours; second in command, 10 hours.
(1) Group I airplanes—
(i) Reciprocating powered. Pilot in command, 10 hours; second in command, 6 hours; and
(ii) Turbopropeller powered. Pilot in command, 15 hours; second in command, 7 hours.
(2) Group II airplanes. Pilot in command, 20 hours; second in command, 10 hours.
Like I said, there's unfortunately not a whole lot of gray area in terms of what counts as "transition" and "upgrade". Because turboprop (I.E. EMB120) is not in the same training "group" as a turbojet (I.E. CRJ), you must use the "upgrade" phraseology instead of the more lenient "transition" phraseology.
#106
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Satan's Camaro
Posts: 397
TW and I are at similar stages in life, and in my opinion the important issues here are loyalty and respect, as opposed to the technicalities of "upgrade" vs "transition" (if we were 22 year-olds fresh out of 'Riddle, then the situation might be different). Loyalty is a two-way street, and personally I would rather work as a crack-wh*** than give that kind of organization the satisfaction of begging for my old job back! Also, "when one door closes another one opens." For example, I know of a job possibility that I told TW about (although I don't know if he'll pursue it) that doesn't involve growing a long beard and wearing a turban.
#107
Loyalty should be a two-way street, but it is rarely found in actuality. Many thought (think) it existed (exists) at SkyWest. Some are learning different.
SkyWest has no contract.
SkyWest has no contract.
SkyWest has no contract.
There is no Collective Bargaining Agent -- no union -- so there can be no contract.
SkyWest employees are at-will employees. They can be fired for no reason at all. Any reason at all. (Well, except for discrimination against a protected class.) They can be fired for tubing one oral, or for having a wrinkled shirt.
Game over.
.
SkyWest has no contract.
SkyWest has no contract.
There is no Collective Bargaining Agent -- no union -- so there can be no contract.
SkyWest employees are at-will employees. They can be fired for no reason at all. Any reason at all. (Well, except for discrimination against a protected class.) They can be fired for tubing one oral, or for having a wrinkled shirt.
Game over.
.
#108
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
Loyalty should be a two-way street, but it is rarely found in actuality. Many thought (think) it existed (exists) at SkyWest. Some are learning different.
SkyWest has no contract.
SkyWest has no contract.
SkyWest has no contract.
There is no Collective Bargaining Agent -- no union -- so there can be no contract.
SkyWest employees are at-will employees. They can be fired for no reason at all. Any reason at all. (Well, except for discrimination against a protected class.) They can be fired for tubing one oral, or for having a wrinkled shirt.
Game over.
.
SkyWest has no contract.
SkyWest has no contract.
SkyWest has no contract.
There is no Collective Bargaining Agent -- no union -- so there can be no contract.
SkyWest employees are at-will employees. They can be fired for no reason at all. Any reason at all. (Well, except for discrimination against a protected class.) They can be fired for tubing one oral, or for having a wrinkled shirt.
Game over.
.
Tony, it's nice to see you posting again.
Good luck trying to convey your message.
#109
SKW does not fire people lightly, that is a well known fact. If you don't work there you don't really have the slightest clue about how things work.
In TW's case there was likely more than meets the eye, and none of us here know the full story, perhaps not even TW.
As you mentioned, At-Will employees are protected from discrimination by specific laws (ie protected classes). This doesn't mean you can't fire a protected class, you just need to document that it was for legit reasons (and you might get sued anyway).
But At-will (and any other) employees are also protected by the general concept of Tort...in short you cannot treat someone unjustly. What does unjust mean? Whatever you want it to mean, as long as you can convince a jury! Another SKW pilot recently won a lawsuit along those lines.
They cannot fire you for not ironing your shirt...because they do not fire EVERY employee who wears wrinkled clothes. Same with any other trivial offense.
Most of us rely on SKW managment to do the right thing, and they almost always do (they had better, if they want to stay union-free).
Pilots who get fired at SKW almost invariably did one of these things:
- Show up drunk
- Fail a drug test
- Lie
- Commit repeated safety violations (one of which involves the NTSB).
- Aggressively and REPEATEDLY P/O other people, including manangers.
- Fail new-hire training.
#110
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732