Up and Out Policies: Upgrade
10-26-2008 | 06:47 AM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
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From: CA
TW - It seems to me that you fall under 11(c) and NOT under 11(a).
11(a) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO upgrading to CA on an RJ and failed then you would be terminated.
11(c) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO transitioning and upgrading to be a CA on the EMB-120 may elect to return to their previous position (the RJ for you) and frozen for 12 month.
What am I misreading here?
USMCFLYR
11(a) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO upgrading to CA on an RJ and failed then you would be terminated.
11(c) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO transitioning and upgrading to be a CA on the EMB-120 may elect to return to their previous position (the RJ for you) and frozen for 12 month.
What am I misreading here?
USMCFLYR
10-26-2008 | 07:09 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 397
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From: Satan's Camaro
TW - It seems to me that you fall under 11(c) and NOT under 11(a).
11(a) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO upgrading to CA on an RJ and failed then you would be terminated.
11(c) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO transitioning and upgrading to be a CA on the EMB-120, they may elect to return to their previous position (the RJ for you) and frozen for 12 months.
What am I misreading here?
USMCFLYR
11(a) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO upgrading to CA on an RJ and failed then you would be terminated.
11(c) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO transitioning and upgrading to be a CA on the EMB-120, they may elect to return to their previous position (the RJ for you) and frozen for 12 months.
What am I misreading here?
USMCFLYR
To summarize, upgrade training=upgrading to a CA position that you don't already have a class of ATP for.
Transition training=upgrading from one jet to another jet or one turboprop to another turboprop (well, I might stand corrected on this, not sure if they're treated differently). To give another example; if SKW got 170s and a jet CA bidded a 170 CA slot, he/she would go under transition training.
10-26-2008 | 07:43 AM
#94
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,149
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From: Engines Turn or People Swim
If it would change the policy, sign me up......
However, when I learned of Tony's situation, and I began talking to my captains about the policy, I learned that the vast majority of them support the policy. (Again an unscientific poll of ORD based capts.)
And being that ALPA at each airline, is run by that airline's pilots, I feel fairly certain that this paticular policy would stick. The airline for whatever reason likes it, and unfortunately a large sector of our pilots support it.
However, when I learned of Tony's situation, and I began talking to my captains about the policy, I learned that the vast majority of them support the policy. (Again an unscientific poll of ORD based capts.)
And being that ALPA at each airline, is run by that airline's pilots, I feel fairly certain that this paticular policy would stick. The airline for whatever reason likes it, and unfortunately a large sector of our pilots support it.
Some of the older captains did not have up-or-out when they upgraded, and many don't see the need for it.
I think the correct solution is to hire for captains in the first place, and if a few ringers slip through (they will) let 'em stay in the right seat if they want...I suspect many would eventually find another career anyway rather than remain a lifer regional FO
10-26-2008 | 07:43 AM
#95
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 441
Likes: 15
From: 30 West
[U]
c) Pilots who fail an oral examination (either FAA or Company) will be
trained to proficiency and given another oral.
11) Pilots, who are unable to satisfactorily complete the additional training or pass a third simulator/flight check, or are not recommended for a flight
check after the additional training is complete, will be treated as follows:
c) Pilots who fail an oral examination (either FAA or Company) will be
trained to proficiency and given another oral.
11) Pilots, who are unable to satisfactorily complete the additional training or pass a third simulator/flight check, or are not recommended for a flight
check after the additional training is complete, will be treated as follows:
Tony,
The reason I think you have a case is that while SKW may have the right to fire you after they give you additional training, in your case they elected to terminate you without any additional training. Going from an oral check to a simulator check does not constitute training. I still do not think they followed their own policy.
The other point I have is if they decide they no longer want you working for them, and have the right to dismiss you as an at will employee, it does not give them the right to destroy your career opportunities in the rest of the industry.
10-26-2008 | 07:46 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
I think I understand this.
I understand that you could TRANSITION from an FO on a CRJ to an FO on a EMB-120. In the military I would call TRANSITION from a F-14 to a F/A-18 - transitioning to a different airframe.
Upgrading to me means moving from a FO position to a Captain position.
Again - military analogy - moving from wingman to section lead.
So.......11 (c):
makes it sounds like a FO who is UPGRADING to CAPTAIN and TRANSITIONING to a different airframe would fall under this paragraph.
RJ FO upgrading to CA and transitioning from RJ to EMB-120 would be covered here.
Military analogy - F-14 wingman upgrading to a flight lead right after he has transitioned to the Hornet.
OK - long post - but please point out where I have misunderstood the airline model.
USMCFLYR
I understand that you could TRANSITION from an FO on a CRJ to an FO on a EMB-120. In the military I would call TRANSITION from a F-14 to a F/A-18 - transitioning to a different airframe.
Upgrading to me means moving from a FO position to a Captain position.
Again - military analogy - moving from wingman to section lead.
So.......11 (c):
Pilots, who are undergoing transition training for a captain or first
officer position, may elect to return to their previous position for
which he/she was qualified and be frozen for a period of twelve (12)
months.
officer position, may elect to return to their previous position for
which he/she was qualified and be frozen for a period of twelve (12)
months.
RJ FO upgrading to CA and transitioning from RJ to EMB-120 would be covered here.
Military analogy - F-14 wingman upgrading to a flight lead right after he has transitioned to the Hornet.
OK - long post - but please point out where I have misunderstood the airline model.
USMCFLYR
10-26-2008 | 07:51 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
[QUOTE]
I do see the upgrade training here but it doesn't say anything about transitioning like 11(c) does - which is why I said that if upgrading with no other transition (except differences training for example) I could understand it - though not agree with it. I don't know.
But he moved from one airframe to another airframe - which was upgrading and transitioning. Doesn't his situation fall more in line with 11(c)
Yep - got this I'm pretty sure. very similar.
OR CRJ TO TURBOPROP RIGHT?
USMCFLYR
11c is a little more complicated, since if I remember correctly, it barely even applies to SKW. SKW, I believe, trains all it's jet captains on all of its jets (since they're all CRJs) and gives you differences trainings. However, let's pretend that they only trained you on the CRJ200, and you would have to bid a CRJ700 slot. The training to the CR7 would be transition training.
To summarize, upgrade training=upgrading to a CA position that you don't already have a class of ATP for.
Transition training=upgrading from one jet to another jet or one turboprop to another turboprop
USMCFLYR
10-26-2008 | 07:52 AM
#98
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 45,149
Likes: 802
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
I think I understand this.
I understand that you could TRANSITION from an FO on a CRJ to an FO on a EMB-120. In the military I would call TRANSITION from a F-14 to a F/A-18 - transitioning to a different airframe.
Upgrading to me means moving from a FO position to a Captain position.
Again - military analogy - moving from wingman to section lead.
So.......11 (c):
makes it sounds like a FO who is UPGRADING to CAPTAIN and TRANSITIONING to a different airframe would fall under this paragraph.
RJ FO upgrading to CA and transitioning from RJ to EMB-120 would be covered here.
Military analogy - F-14 wingman upgrading to a flight lead right after he has transitioned to the Hornet.
OK - long post - but please point out where I have misunderstood the airline model.
USMCFLYR
I understand that you could TRANSITION from an FO on a CRJ to an FO on a EMB-120. In the military I would call TRANSITION from a F-14 to a F/A-18 - transitioning to a different airframe.
Upgrading to me means moving from a FO position to a Captain position.
Again - military analogy - moving from wingman to section lead.
So.......11 (c):
makes it sounds like a FO who is UPGRADING to CAPTAIN and TRANSITIONING to a different airframe would fall under this paragraph.
RJ FO upgrading to CA and transitioning from RJ to EMB-120 would be covered here.
Military analogy - F-14 wingman upgrading to a flight lead right after he has transitioned to the Hornet.
OK - long post - but please point out where I have misunderstood the airline model.
USMCFLYR
You can upgrade, or transition, or do both at the same time. Just because you are transitioning does not imply that it is not also an upgrade.
When you go from FO to CA for the FIRST time at SKW, that is your initial upgrade which you cannot fail. Any other training event (except new hire) you can fail and go back to your previous position.
10-26-2008 | 08:10 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
[QUOTE]
Agreed.....and he was doing BOTH at the same time so I keyed on
because he was undergoing transition (RJ to EMB) training for a captain [upgrade]....
This is definiley the part that I'm getting stuck on. What is the scenario in 11(c) that isn't covered by the first time going from a FO to CA in the quote above? It certainly sounds like if an FO is going from a EMB to CRJ FO and he fails then he gets to go back to being an EMB FO. Correct?
USMCFLYR
c) Pilots, who are undergoing transition training for a captain or first officer position, may elect to return to their previous position for
which he/she was qualified and be frozen for a period of twelve (12)
months.
which he/she was qualified and be frozen for a period of twelve (12)
months.
When you go from FO to CA for the FIRST time at SKW, that is your initial upgrade which you cannot fail.
USMCFLYR
