reelbigchair

If it would change the policy, sign me up......

However, when I learned of Tony's situation, and I began talking to my captains about the policy, I learned that the vast majority of them support the policy. (Again an unscientific poll of ORD based capts.)
And being that ALPA at each airline, is run by that airline's pilots, I feel fairly certain that this paticular policy would stick. The airline for whatever reason likes it, and unfortunately a large sector of our pilots support it.

de727ups

Seems as though not everyone agrees with you, chair. From TonyW himself:

"The grossly unscientific poll I saw on the SAPA forum was that 25% supported Up-n-Out."

That leaves 75% who don't support it.

Here's an unanswered question. Besides AA, who else has this policy? Anybody? Why would Skywest pilots support a policy that seems to be quite rare in the industry?

sigep_nm

I think at Mesaba we may employ a similar policy for people upgrading prior to being off probation. In that case the union can do nothing for you, but after you are off probation, you just go back to your previous position. I believe you do have the option to attempt it one more time rather than go back to the other position, with a failure that time resulting in termination.

TonyC

I just stumbled across this thread and learned for the first time of Tony's dismissal. I want to comment on a few things, but I must preface my comments with this. Although Tony and I have had a great number of discussions, and have agreed on very few principles, I would never have wished ill will on him, and am sorry that he was fired. I gave up days off to jumpseat across the country to talk with Skywest pilots, I took time off from a vacation weekend in Denver to encourage Skywest pilots, and I spent plenty of time here pleading with them to protect their careers. Still, I take no pleasure in saying "I told you so." -- please do not misinterpret my remarks as such. I'm sorry that Tony was fired.



What I hope everyone will recognize is that SAPA is not "labor representation." An in-house group of pilots does not have the authority to negotiate a contract or represent the pilots. That authority is only given by the National Mediation Board (NMB) to those unions that have been certified to represent the Class and Craft at that airline. ALPA petitioned the NMB to have that authority, and the pilots voted against it. What they have is a committee with no teeth.







A subtle, but very important nuance lies here. SWAPA, APA, and USAPA are INDEPENDENT unions, certified by the NMB to be the sole Collective Bargaining Agent for their respective pilot groups. They negotiate Collective Bargaining Agreements, and they represent pilots in matters concerning the employer. "In-house" organizations, such as the Flight Advisory Board (FAB) at FedEx before it was organized, or SAPA at Skywest do not negotiate contracts, and they have no legal standing to represent pilots in matters dealing with the company.




The union enforces the contract, and it defends the pilot. Were you to be fired by Skywest for failing an upgrade with ALPA as the Collective Bargaining Agent, ALPA would be fighting for your job back.



That sounds like a testimonial if I've ever heard one. What folks need to glean from this is that loyalty is a one-way street in companies like this. You can dedicate your life and your livelihood to them, but you shouldn't rely on them to return the favor. You don't always get what you deserve -- you get what you negotiate. Tony, and every other pilot at Skywest deserved far better than what he got.






I wish you were working with the ones I know. They're tenacious, and they've got a good track record.

Best Regards







.

reelbigchair

Yea I read that, I hope he's right, if that's the case maybe something will someday change. However the discussions I've had in the flight deck don't support his numbers.
Also I think you think I'm arguing with you... I haven't a clue why any SkyWest pilot would support it, I certainly don't. However rare it is in the industry, there are a great number of pilots here that do.

reelbigchair

It should also be noted that there was a similar poll before the union drive about how they were voting. It had ALPA winning... easily if I recall. The SAPA forum is not a microcosm for the pilot group as a whole. I also recognize that the ORD capts I fly with represent a faction of the group as well. I'm just repeating what I gathered to be the average sentiment from my discussions.

TonyWilliams

SkyWest Crewmember Policy Manual Revision 9
TRAINING
STANDARD PRACTICE 315


8) Training Failures
a) A maximum total combination of three (3) failures in the ground
school, oral, FTD, simulator, flight training, or rating rides will be
allowed.
b) Pilots who successfully pass ground training but fail FTD training
will be given additional training to proficiency prior to commencing
simulator training.
c) Pilots who fail an oral examination (either FAA or Company) will be
trained to proficiency and given another oral.

Ok, this is interesting. It specifically says that I will be trained and given another oral. That, my friends, did not happen.


11) Pilots, who are unable to satisfactorily complete the additional training or
pass a third simulator/flight check, or are not recommended for a flight
check after the additional training is complete, will be treated as follows:

a) Pilots who are undergoing upgrade training for a captain position
will be terminated.

(<<<<That's me)

b) New hire pilots who are undergoing initial first officer training will
be terminated.

c) Pilots, who are undergoing transition training for a captain or first
officer position, may elect to return to their previous position for
which he/she was qualified and be frozen for a period of twelve (12)
months.

(This is the logical answer to upgrades, also. But, as has been pointed out, probably half the captains at SkyWest disagree. And, as is the case with SAPA, I believe any union would be largely... well, almost exclusively run by captains. Doesn't matter if 75% of the bargaining unit is all over this. They don't negotiate the contracts.

In the event that the pilot cannot pass the required flight training for their previous position, employment will be terminated.

12) The Company will freeze pilots who fail to qualify, after entering a
transition program for the second time,

(I love this... protect the good 'ole boys! Fail TWICE and still keep your job.)

in status and equipment for as long as the equipment remains in operation. If such equipment is phased out, the pilot’s employment will be terminated.

TonyC

According to the Department of Labor, each member of the Class or Craft has the same vote.


Talk to someone who thought it was a good idea to screw the junior guys with a substandard pay scale at American Airlines, and ask 'em how that worked out in the end.








.

HercDriver130

I am fairly certain that the policy at RAH is if you fail at upgrade twice you will be terminated...... maybe TD who still works there can chime in on that...

USMCFLYR

TW - It seems to me that you fall under 11(c) and NOT under 11(a).

11(a) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO upgrading to CA on an RJ and failed then you would be terminated.
11(c) makes it sound like if you were an RJ FO transitioning and upgrading to be a CA on the EMB-120, they may elect to return to their previous position (the RJ for you) and frozen for 12 months.

What am I misreading here?

USMCFLYR