The type of Airline Pilots we have become
02-27-2009 | 07:53 PM
#61
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From: CEO
the difference between now and years ago is when Airline Pilots started their careers there was no ALL ATP, no Gulfstream Airlines etc..............it was much harder to get into the airlines than it was this past summer, and usually the ones who had experience hailed from the Military, and lets not kid ourselves THERE IS NO BETTER TRAINING THAN UNCLE SAM'S when it comes to flying airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!!
However to play devils advocate there was a time when they put ads in the paper and scraped Pilots off the street with PPL to fly 747's, albeit F/E but I dunno exactly how it went.
The point is the type of person in this profession as changed dramatically. I have flown with guys that are so afraid of EVERYTHING, the FAA, ATC, the Company, the Gate Agent, the F/A, they are basically afraid to make their own decisions and it cripples them as Pilots, as well as CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS. Back in the day it was a "Man's Man", you know the type, the grisly Brown Liqueur drinking type of guy that ran the show, didn't take any Sh*t from anyone, could fly an airplane with one wing etc......(much like a lot of Old school Delta,NWA, United, American, TWA etc.......)now its some quasi yuppie nerd who grew up playing Flight Sim, happy with low pay because his parents set him/her up nicely.
Some of you guys may even know him, but when I instructed I worked for Rich Greene, out of Caldwell, NJ (Century) he retired like #14 at American in 2002, he was an Airbus CA, he was very rough around the edges but he knew more about aviation and flying then anyone I ever met, he rubbed people the wrong way, and multiple times people stormed out of his flight school saying he was nuts) but in my mind he was the epitome of an airline pilot, he was kinda rude, insensitive but told you how it was and was in complete control at all times, and would never be told what to do by a Gate agent, but still professional......sorta
The profession has not only lost its pay, and glamor, it is losing good pilots, it is the culmination of our society as a whole, trying to be politically correct, too afraid to speak the truth etc...........
Rant over, I have no idea what I just said but hopefully you guys understand what I am trying to say
However to play devils advocate there was a time when they put ads in the paper and scraped Pilots off the street with PPL to fly 747's, albeit F/E but I dunno exactly how it went.
The point is the type of person in this profession as changed dramatically. I have flown with guys that are so afraid of EVERYTHING, the FAA, ATC, the Company, the Gate Agent, the F/A, they are basically afraid to make their own decisions and it cripples them as Pilots, as well as CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS. Back in the day it was a "Man's Man", you know the type, the grisly Brown Liqueur drinking type of guy that ran the show, didn't take any Sh*t from anyone, could fly an airplane with one wing etc......(much like a lot of Old school Delta,NWA, United, American, TWA etc.......)now its some quasi yuppie nerd who grew up playing Flight Sim, happy with low pay because his parents set him/her up nicely.
Some of you guys may even know him, but when I instructed I worked for Rich Greene, out of Caldwell, NJ (Century) he retired like #14 at American in 2002, he was an Airbus CA, he was very rough around the edges but he knew more about aviation and flying then anyone I ever met, he rubbed people the wrong way, and multiple times people stormed out of his flight school saying he was nuts) but in my mind he was the epitome of an airline pilot, he was kinda rude, insensitive but told you how it was and was in complete control at all times, and would never be told what to do by a Gate agent, but still professional......sorta
The profession has not only lost its pay, and glamor, it is losing good pilots, it is the culmination of our society as a whole, trying to be politically correct, too afraid to speak the truth etc...........
Rant over, I have no idea what I just said but hopefully you guys understand what I am trying to say
02-27-2009 | 08:00 PM
#62
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: CEO
Very nice post Saab 
I will say that when I'm up in the left seat the ONLY person I'm even remotely scared of is the FAA ... and I'll explain...
When I'm up in the left seat, I know that I'm in charge of that aircraft and everything that goes on. Whatever happens on my aircraft, I have the mindset that my crew comes first, NOT the passengers. I have been criticized for this viewpoint by many people, but in my opinion, if you don't take care of your crew who the hell is going to take care of the pax?!?! I'm very stern with people when I have to be, and I'll tell it how it is if I get ****ed off about something if someone isn't doing their job. The gate agents don't scare me because in IAD half of them can't speak English anyway, so it really doesn't matter what they say! The ramp agents can kiss my a$$ because 80% of the time we're having to wait on them for EVERYTHING, and more than once now I've chewed out a supervisor who claims that he just got there and didn't know what was going on (to which I responded, so who's been in charge up until now?). I can't count the number of times I have personally got off the plane and helped load bags just to make sure we're out on time. 9L doesn't have a clue what's happening with my aircraft until something goes terribly wrong, so really, unless I REALLY mess up. I have even called my dispatcher to tell them we would be late leaving the gate for reason "A" and had to tell another one because mine was busy ... only to have my dispatcher call up 5 minutes later and ask why we were late. My company doesn't scare me. If I **** them off for some reason or another, the worst thing they can do is kick me to the curb. That would definitely suck, don't get me wrong.
The ONLY people I'm afraid of is the FAA. They are the ONLY people on this planet that can not just fire me, but completely revoke my license to fly. Take away my career forever. So, I'll be brutally honest with everyone I work with when I need to be, and I'll light a fire under people's a$$'s when the time calls, but no matter what happens, I do my job correctly and accurately so that the only people I fear, never have to come up and say "thanks for playing, goodbye".
I agree with you on everything you said Saab. I can only hope that the pilots we have today haven't lost their touch on being in control and being able to put their foot down! That's what it takes sometimes.
I will say that when I'm up in the left seat the ONLY person I'm even remotely scared of is the FAA ... and I'll explain...
When I'm up in the left seat, I know that I'm in charge of that aircraft and everything that goes on. Whatever happens on my aircraft, I have the mindset that my crew comes first, NOT the passengers. I have been criticized for this viewpoint by many people, but in my opinion, if you don't take care of your crew who the hell is going to take care of the pax?!?! I'm very stern with people when I have to be, and I'll tell it how it is if I get ****ed off about something if someone isn't doing their job. The gate agents don't scare me because in IAD half of them can't speak English anyway, so it really doesn't matter what they say! The ramp agents can kiss my a$$ because 80% of the time we're having to wait on them for EVERYTHING, and more than once now I've chewed out a supervisor who claims that he just got there and didn't know what was going on (to which I responded, so who's been in charge up until now?). I can't count the number of times I have personally got off the plane and helped load bags just to make sure we're out on time. 9L doesn't have a clue what's happening with my aircraft until something goes terribly wrong, so really, unless I REALLY mess up. I have even called my dispatcher to tell them we would be late leaving the gate for reason "A" and had to tell another one because mine was busy ... only to have my dispatcher call up 5 minutes later and ask why we were late. My company doesn't scare me. If I **** them off for some reason or another, the worst thing they can do is kick me to the curb. That would definitely suck, don't get me wrong.
The ONLY people I'm afraid of is the FAA. They are the ONLY people on this planet that can not just fire me, but completely revoke my license to fly. Take away my career forever. So, I'll be brutally honest with everyone I work with when I need to be, and I'll light a fire under people's a$$'s when the time calls, but no matter what happens, I do my job correctly and accurately so that the only people I fear, never have to come up and say "thanks for playing, goodbye".
I agree with you on everything you said Saab. I can only hope that the pilots we have today haven't lost their touch on being in control and being able to put their foot down! That's what it takes sometimes.
02-28-2009 | 05:58 AM
#64
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From: Legacy FO
It just isn't the flying time that makes you experienced. There is also the leadership aspect of the profession. I would hire a 300 hour pilot with *real* leadership and management experience over a multiple thousand hour pilot with little or no leadership experience.
02-28-2009 | 06:36 AM
#65
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From: ERJ 145 F/O
It just isn't the flying time that makes you experienced. There is also the leadership aspect of the profession. I would hire a 300 hour pilot with *real* leadership and management experience over a multiple thousand hour pilot with little or no leadership experience.
02-28-2009 | 07:53 AM
#66
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Maybe he wasn't necessarily talking about the 21 y/o, 300 hr pilot. He might have been thinking of a late bloomer in the aviation field. Maybe he was thinking of a 35-40 year old with prior work/leadership experience a compared to the 24 y/o, 1000 hr pilot right out of college or a pilot mill.
I don't know.....that is just what I took away from his post when I read it.
USMCFLYR
02-28-2009 | 01:47 PM
#67
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From: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
The only low time people I know of who were hired were several interns and most of them had about 1500+ hours and previously there was a group of minority pilots who were hired due to an EEOC law suit which UAL lost. Some of those folks were super low time and a couple were real problem children but most have done fine.
The minimums listed on the application did not reflect the average pilot being hired by UAL in the mid 90's. The lowest time guys on average were fighter pilots the computer was set up to give them two for one on their total time credit due to the lower total times these folks get due to the mission length segments they fly.
As far as the OP. I guess I've seen what you are talking about but....I don't think you'll find many major airline captains who will take too much crap off gate agents, mechanics, flight attendants or anyone else when it comes to the final authority and safety of the flight. As far as being "scared" of these people, no, I'll work with them I'll try and accommodate them but nobody and I mean nobody closes my door and tells me to leave before I am good and ready to go. I've never worked for a regional so I can't comment on that side of things.
There is a huge difference between being a good captain and acting like a crusty unfriendly old sh!t head. The two usually don't go together real well. An effective leader can get everything they need to get done without intentionally p***ing everybody off. If some one needs a smack down you've got to be willing to give it but 99% of the time there are betters ways to deal with the situation.
Last edited by Airhoss; 02-28-2009 at 03:46 PM.
02-28-2009 | 02:11 PM
#68
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From: 747 FO
I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying don't rule out other forms of training.......especially the real world stuff.
02-28-2009 | 05:31 PM
#69
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From: Legacy FO
Playing devil's advocate on this, because I agree with what I think you're trying to say.....but what kind of real leadership and management experience would a 21 year old 300 hour pilot have that would make him/her stand out that much against a multiple thousand hour pilot? Many would argue that the multiple thousand hour pilot has experience and leadership just on their flight time, regardless of the quality of it. Again, KC10, just playing the advocate here.......not trying to burn any bridges with anyone. I was one of those guys who got hired in the boom of 2007, but I wasn't a 21 year old.....I got on with a regional and am now furloughed but I got some time flying in a 121 environment and still haven't quite hit 1000 hours..........does that make me any less qualified now than a 1200 hour CFI?
I wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say. What I meant to say was not all flight time is created equal and just because you have flight time DOES NOT make you experienced.
We all know this, or we should, but being an airline pilot just isn't flying the plane. You are a leader and the final decision maker in the realm of safety. This is why I say I would hire a low time pilot with good customer service and leadership abilities over a high time pilot. Let's face it, Mathew Broderick proved you can teach a monkey to fly an airplane. But teaching them how to lead a crew and passengers through a stressful situation is another story.
Also, as I am a Part 121 pilot, Part 121 time (in my opinion) isn't all it's cracked up to be. The pilot doesn't plan the flight and most of the flying is conducted with the autopilot on. Automation also makes it very easy and your skills deminish because you end up relying on the automation so much. Then, for example, when the ACARs is dead, just getting ATIS suddenly becomes and emergency procedure. Ok, I'm kidding, but I think you get the point.
Sure, there's experience to be gained there, but only if the pilot learns from those experiences. A big problem the high time pilot has is complacency whereas the low time pilot has ignorance. The high time pilot is going to get interviews but it will be the HR interview that determines if he's an experienced pilot and a seasoned leader.
Call my company crazy but on day one of training, we were all told that we were hired for our leadership ability first. The fact that we all had X amount of flying time with no violations etc., showed that we were good pilots and that was a "given".
-Fatty
02-28-2009 | 05:44 PM
#70
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
I disagree with this part. Among other aspects of the industry, there is some darn good "training" happening when one is flying in the trenches of part 135 single pilot, turboprop, no autopilot, unscheduled etc. flying. With respect to airmanship and stick and rudder skills, I'd put the most proficient pilots in this field against the most proficient military pilots any day
I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying don't rule out other forms of training.......especially the real world stuff.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying don't rule out other forms of training.......especially the real world stuff.
You seem to have a high opinion of Part 135 pilots and a low opinion of military (of any type) pilots - but since I have never flown Part 135 and you have never flown military (I'm thinking - correct me if I'm wrong) then let's just say that we don't know which pilot with stick and rudders skill would come out on top. If my stick and rudders skills are not as good as the Part 135 pilot's - it is probably because I spend about 10% of my flight time flying in a straight line between A and B and most of my time on the mission.
USMCFLYR
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