The type of Airline Pilots we have become
03-01-2009 | 04:16 PM
#91
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
That is incorrect. I never once implied a low opinion of military pilots. My post was in response to a post that claimed that military training is better in all cases. Me disagreeing does not, in the least, even suggest a low opinion of military pilots.
That said, I was a 135 check airman in a previous life and I have seen excellent military pilots as well as military pilots that should never operate a doorbell. This rings true with pilots from a civilian background.
Folks, many of you in this thread seem to think that any dissension from the idea that military pilots are generally superior airman than civilian pilots is anti-military. Nothing is further from the truth. The very first post implied some sort of default superiority with military aviation and many of us disagreed. Unless you military folks think you really are god's gift to aviation, what's the problem?
That said, I was a 135 check airman in a previous life and I have seen excellent military pilots as well as military pilots that should never operate a doorbell. This rings true with pilots from a civilian background.
Folks, many of you in this thread seem to think that any dissension from the idea that military pilots are generally superior airman than civilian pilots is anti-military. Nothing is further from the truth. The very first post implied some sort of default superiority with military aviation and many of us disagreed. Unless you military folks think you really are god's gift to aviation, what's the problem?
USMCFLYR
03-01-2009 | 04:22 PM
#92
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From: SIC
Actually, it is training.In fact, real world flying is better training than any training curriculum or syllabus could provide by a long shot.
As a former 135 check airman, i have flown with many excellent fighter guys and some not so excellent.....as with the civilian side too. So cranking and banking and shaking a Mig doesn't necessarily make someone a proficient airman.
As a former 135 check airman, i have flown with many excellent fighter guys and some not so excellent.....as with the civilian side too. So cranking and banking and shaking a Mig doesn't necessarily make someone a proficient airman.
03-01-2009 | 05:35 PM
#93
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From: 747 FO
Then we seem to be saying the same things in a different way then. My response was originally to a post stating that Part 135 pilots have better "stick and rudder skills" I read it as much of an absolute statement as the one which opined that Uncle Sam had the best training overall.
USMCFLYR
USMCFLYR
I disagree with this part. Among other aspects of the industry, there is some darn good "training" happening when one is flying in the trenches of part 135 single pilot, turboprop, no autopilot, unscheduled etc. flying. With respect to airmanship and stick and rudder skills, I'd put the most proficient pilots in this field against the most proficient military pilots any day.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying don't rule out other forms of training.......especially the real world stuff.
I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying don't rule out other forms of training.......especially the real world stuff.
03-01-2009 | 05:39 PM
#94
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From: A-320
Very well. However, for the record, I don't think my post even suggested that I said "Part 135 pilots have better "stick and rudder skills""
Whereas with Saabrowski's post;
quote=SAABaroowski;566748].........and lets not kid ourselves THERE IS NO BETTER TRAINING THAN UNCLE SAM'S when it comes to flying airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!!...........
Whereas with Saabrowski's post;
quote=SAABaroowski;566748].........and lets not kid ourselves THERE IS NO BETTER TRAINING THAN UNCLE SAM'S when it comes to flying airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!!...........
Well, I did'nt say they were better pilots, I just said better training.........
03-01-2009 | 06:28 PM
#95
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From: BEECH 1900 PIC
5.) The reason why some, and I emphasize SOME here, of the military pilots are like that is because they can learn things pretty damn fast. This leads them to be able to do a lot in an airplane with one arm behind their back, a gun to their head, and four engines on fire and do it while sipping a mai tai and singing sinatra. They are trained to the most stringent of standards, I would say harder than your examiner in Dallas. They're decision making skills are typically top notch under pressure and they do know what CRM means. I'd argue that the military brought up CRM in their training regimen before the airlines did, but I'm not going to sit here with a ruler and measure.
6.) That attitude that you argue is so horrible from these typical military pilots is something I could argue you having right now by trying to insult them and saying their training is dismissive anywhere other than the military. I will call no joy on that argument any day.
The question then is why would I even point it out. Let me answer that by asking you a question. How often do you see on these forums a civilian pilot comparing his training to that of a military pilot? I would guess very seldom. All I'm saying is that training doesn't make the pilot, attitude and judgement does. All the training in the world won't save his/her life, or the people behind them, without attitude and judgement. The military does not have a monopoly on that.
That being said, I will reitterate that military pilots are some of the finest guys we have in this business. I have emense respect and gratitude for anyone who dons the military uniform. I just ask that you show the same amout of respect for others who have chosen a different path.
As for USMCFLYR, I don't have a chip on my shoulder and I'm not jealous. Initial post was somewhat knee jerk, said things kind of aggressively and probably could have articulated better. A lot of what you said I probably deserved, but I stand by my point of view.
If I offended anyone, sincere apologies.
03-01-2009 | 06:51 PM
#96
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
[QUOTE]
I didn't know we had been "chased" in Bosnia (serious here - not trying to be funny) Can you provide the link?
Absolutely agree.
I thought it was funny that the media made so much out of his prior military service. I had the same opinion as you considering his 30 years of airline flying. In my opinion - that was just the media looking for a sound bite.
I would agree with this also - and as I said - you don't see military pilots on here touting themselves as God's gift to aviation. You see them on here be justifyably proud of their accomplishments just as you see Part 135 pilots and Alaskan Bush pilots doing the same - as they should.
Good - I'm glad you don't. Thanks for recognizing the knee jerk. We're all good and we'll both stand by our statements.
USMCFLYR
Never said that, clearly made the point that there are good and bad pilots in both realms.
I guess he learned nothing in 30 years of flying for US Airways, just collecting a paycheck.
The question then is why would I even point it out. Let me answer that by asking you a question. How often do you see on these forums a civilian pilot comparing his training to that of a military pilot? I would guess very seldom. All I'm saying is that training doesn't make the pilot, attitude and judgement does. All the training in the world won't save his/her life, or the people behind them, without attitude and judgement. The military does not have a monopoly on that.
As for USMCFLYR, I don't have a chip on my shoulder and I'm not jealous. Initial post was somewhat knee jerk, said things kind of aggressively and probably could have articulated better. A lot of what you said I probably deserved, but I stand by my point of view.
USMCFLYR
03-01-2009 | 07:11 PM
#97
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From: BEECH 1900 PIC
[quote=USMCFLYR;569915][quote]
I didn't know we had been "chased" in Bosnia (serious here - not trying to be funny) Can you provide the link?
Sorry, should have clarified, not chased but ,if I'm correct, last confirmed shoot downs of Mig. Bosnia 1999 USAF F-16 vs. Mig 29
Yugoslav & Serbian MiG-29s
I didn't know we had been "chased" in Bosnia (serious here - not trying to be funny) Can you provide the link?
Sorry, should have clarified, not chased but ,if I'm correct, last confirmed shoot downs of Mig. Bosnia 1999 USAF F-16 vs. Mig 29
Yugoslav & Serbian MiG-29s
03-01-2009 | 07:16 PM
#98
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
[quote=johnnysnow;569929][quote=USMCFLYR;569915]
Roger that. I knew about those kills in Bosnia....but I keyed on your "chased" comment meaning that we had been on the defensive. Remember when the F-16 guy nearly became an ace with the kills against the 'Grobs' wasn't it?
USMCFLYR
Edit: From Wikipedia
I didn't know we had been "chased" in Bosnia (serious here - not trying to be funny) Can you provide the link?
Sorry, should have clarified, not chased but ,if I'm correct, last confirmed shoot downs of Mig. Bosnia 1999 USAF F-16 vs. Mig 29
Yugoslav & Serbian MiG-29s
Sorry, should have clarified, not chased but ,if I'm correct, last confirmed shoot downs of Mig. Bosnia 1999 USAF F-16 vs. Mig 29
Yugoslav & Serbian MiG-29s
USMCFLYR
Edit: From Wikipedia
On 28 February 1994, 4 J-21 and 2 IJ-21 Jastrebs and 2 J-22 Oraos had violated the no-fly-zone to conduct a bombing run. The pilots of the 2 J-22s spotted the F-16s above them and after their attack, they left the area in low-level flight towards Croatia, where the U.S. jets could not follow; one of these[citation needed] later crashed due to lack of fuel. Meanwhile, the rest of the group was engaged and attacked, first by 2 USAF F-16Cs, which scored three kills. The remaining J-21 was taken out by a different pair of USAF F-16Cs. Of the six Yugoslavian jets engaged, four were shot down (one by AMRAAM and the others by Sidewinders)
03-01-2009 | 07:23 PM
#99
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From: MD-80 FO
USMCflyer,
I enjoyed the friendly banter. I guessed that you could take some ribbing from an ANG guy and dish it back even better. My brother-in-law is USMC in Hawaii. That can get really fun.
I cant remember...because these posts have like ten different conversations going on...but I think you asked about UPT.
As for Vance...in beautiful Enid OK. (feel the sarcasm....and yes, detroying OK in the national championship was bliss) it was broken up into 3 squadrons. t-27 squadron, t-38 squadron, & T1 squadron. The squadrons were run by a Lt Col. and broken down into flights. Each T-37 and T-1 flight was headed by a Captian who had about 8 instructors working under him. 7 were First Assignment Instructor Pilots (FAIPS) 1st LT's, and usually there was one or two captains for whatever reason. T-38's had very few FAIPS and instuctors and flight commanders were always Majors or Lt. Col's due to the intensity of the program.
Programs were broken down into 3 or 4 phases.
1st Phase Contact. Typical Loops, Cuban 8's Chandelles, Split-S, Spins and every other aerobatic imaginable. MUCH more cool than Commercial training in a complex General Aviation aircraft.
2nd Phase - Instrument. Not much to talk about here. Mostly book work, but all-in-all, I liked the 141 training better.
3rd Phase - Formation. This is unlike anything I every experienced in my Civilian training. Very demanding. Completely unapplicable to what I do under 121.
4th Phase - Low Level. Usually only 2 or 3 sorties. No different than buzzing along at 500' in GA with a VFR sectional. Not a memorable phase.
Sorry about the indentured servant comment. It was a term we used in my UPT class jokingly. The serious part was about North Korea. I dont have any desire. Whats really crazy is that a 20 year career in Military Avaition is worth way more than a full career in 121. Amazing what a few bankruptcies can do.
I enjoyed the friendly banter. I guessed that you could take some ribbing from an ANG guy and dish it back even better. My brother-in-law is USMC in Hawaii. That can get really fun.
I cant remember...because these posts have like ten different conversations going on...but I think you asked about UPT.
As for Vance...in beautiful Enid OK. (feel the sarcasm....and yes, detroying OK in the national championship was bliss) it was broken up into 3 squadrons. t-27 squadron, t-38 squadron, & T1 squadron. The squadrons were run by a Lt Col. and broken down into flights. Each T-37 and T-1 flight was headed by a Captian who had about 8 instructors working under him. 7 were First Assignment Instructor Pilots (FAIPS) 1st LT's, and usually there was one or two captains for whatever reason. T-38's had very few FAIPS and instuctors and flight commanders were always Majors or Lt. Col's due to the intensity of the program.
Programs were broken down into 3 or 4 phases.
1st Phase Contact. Typical Loops, Cuban 8's Chandelles, Split-S, Spins and every other aerobatic imaginable. MUCH more cool than Commercial training in a complex General Aviation aircraft.
2nd Phase - Instrument. Not much to talk about here. Mostly book work, but all-in-all, I liked the 141 training better.
3rd Phase - Formation. This is unlike anything I every experienced in my Civilian training. Very demanding. Completely unapplicable to what I do under 121.
4th Phase - Low Level. Usually only 2 or 3 sorties. No different than buzzing along at 500' in GA with a VFR sectional. Not a memorable phase.
Sorry about the indentured servant comment. It was a term we used in my UPT class jokingly. The serious part was about North Korea. I dont have any desire. Whats really crazy is that a 20 year career in Military Avaition is worth way more than a full career in 121. Amazing what a few bankruptcies can do.
03-01-2009 | 07:34 PM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
USMCflyer,
I enjoyed the friendly banter. I guessed that you could take some ribbing from an ANG guy and dish it back even better. My brother-in-law is USMC in Hawaii. That can get really fun.
I cant remember...because these posts have like ten different conversations going on...but I think you asked about UPT.
As for Vance...in beautiful Enid OK. (feel the sarcasm....and yes, detroying OK in the national championship was bliss) it was broken up into 3 squadrons. t-27 squadron, t-38 squadron, & T1 squadron. The squadrons were run by a Lt Col. and broken down into flights. Each T-37 and T-1 flight was headed by a Captian who had about 8 instructors working under him. 7 were First Assignment Instructor Pilots (FAIPS) 1st LT's, and usually there was one or two captains for whatever reason. T-38's had very few FAIPS and instuctors and flight commanders were always Majors or Lt. Col's due to the intensity of the program.
Programs were broken down into 3 or 4 phases.
1st Phase Contact. Typical Loops, Cuban 8's Chandelles, Split-S, Spins and every other aerobatic imaginable. MUCH more cool than Commercial training in a complex General Aviation aircraft.
2nd Phase - Instrument. Not much to talk about here. Mostly book work, but all-in-all, I liked the 141 training better.
3rd Phase - Formation. This is unlike anything I every experienced in my Civilian training. Very demanding. Completely unapplicable to what I do under 121.
4th Phase - Low Level. Usually only 2 or 3 sorties. No different than buzzing along at 500' in GA with a VFR sectional. Not a memorable phase.
Sorry about the indentured servant comment. It was a term we used in my UPT class jokingly. The serious part was about North Korea. I dont have any desire. Whats really crazy is that a 20 year career in Military Avaition is worth way more than a full career in 121. Amazing what a few bankruptcies can do.
I enjoyed the friendly banter. I guessed that you could take some ribbing from an ANG guy and dish it back even better. My brother-in-law is USMC in Hawaii. That can get really fun.
I cant remember...because these posts have like ten different conversations going on...but I think you asked about UPT.
As for Vance...in beautiful Enid OK. (feel the sarcasm....and yes, detroying OK in the national championship was bliss) it was broken up into 3 squadrons. t-27 squadron, t-38 squadron, & T1 squadron. The squadrons were run by a Lt Col. and broken down into flights. Each T-37 and T-1 flight was headed by a Captian who had about 8 instructors working under him. 7 were First Assignment Instructor Pilots (FAIPS) 1st LT's, and usually there was one or two captains for whatever reason. T-38's had very few FAIPS and instuctors and flight commanders were always Majors or Lt. Col's due to the intensity of the program.
Programs were broken down into 3 or 4 phases.
1st Phase Contact. Typical Loops, Cuban 8's Chandelles, Split-S, Spins and every other aerobatic imaginable. MUCH more cool than Commercial training in a complex General Aviation aircraft.
2nd Phase - Instrument. Not much to talk about here. Mostly book work, but all-in-all, I liked the 141 training better.
3rd Phase - Formation. This is unlike anything I every experienced in my Civilian training. Very demanding. Completely unapplicable to what I do under 121.
4th Phase - Low Level. Usually only 2 or 3 sorties. No different than buzzing along at 500' in GA with a VFR sectional. Not a memorable phase.
Sorry about the indentured servant comment. It was a term we used in my UPT class jokingly. The serious part was about North Korea. I dont have any desire. Whats really crazy is that a 20 year career in Military Avaition is worth way more than a full career in 121. Amazing what a few bankruptcies can do.
I've started another thread on the UPT so we can prevent any further thread creep here!
USMCFLYR
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