Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy

Good post and I welcome the debate. It is what makes this website so good.

I wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say. What I meant to say was not all flight time is created equal and just because you have flight time DOES NOT make you experienced.

We all know this, or we should, but being an airline pilot just isn't flying the plane. You are a leader and the final decision maker in the realm of safety. This is why I say I would hire a low time pilot with good customer service and leadership abilities over a high time pilot. Let's face it, Mathew Broderick proved you can teach a monkey to fly an airplane. But teaching them how to lead a crew and passengers through a stressful situation is another story.

Also, as I am a Part 121 pilot, Part 121 time (in my opinion) isn't all it's cracked up to be. The pilot doesn't plan the flight and most of the flying is conducted with the autopilot on. Automation also makes it very easy and your skills deminish because you end up relying on the automation so much. Then, for example, when the ACARs is dead, just getting ATIS suddenly becomes and emergency procedure. Ok, I'm kidding, but I think you get the point.

Sure, there's experience to be gained there, but only if the pilot learns from those experiences. A big problem the high time pilot has is complacency whereas the low time pilot has ignorance. The high time pilot is going to get interviews but it will be the HR interview that determines if he's an experienced pilot and a seasoned leader.

Call my company crazy but on day one of training, we were all told that we were hired for our leadership ability first. The fact that we all had X amount of flying time with no violations etc., showed that we were good pilots and that was a "given".

-Fatty

Originally Posted by Airhoss

I was hired at UAL in 1997. The average new hire then had about 4,500+ hours. I had much more than that. My new hire class had 21 guys no girls one minority. The only special cases we had were the three Marines that somehow slipped through the cracks and got hired.

The only low time people I know of who were hired were several interns and most of them had about 1500+ hours and previously there was a group of minority pilots who were hired due to an EEOC law suit which UAL lost. Some of those folks were super low time and a couple were real problem children but most have done fine.

The minimums listed on the application did not reflect the average pilot being hired by UAL in the mid 90's. The lowest time guys on average were fighter pilots the computer was set up to give them two for one on their total time credit due to the lower total times these folks get due to the mission length segments they fly.

As far as the OP. I guess I've seen what you are talking about but....I don't think you'll find many major airline captains who will take too much crap off gate agents, mechanics, flight attendants or anyone else when it comes to the final authority and safety of the flight. As far as being "scared" of these people, no, I'll work with them I'll try and accommodate them but nobody and I mean nobody closes my door and tells me to leave before I am good and ready to go. I've never worked for a regional so I can't comment on that side of things.

There is a huge difference between being a good captain and acting like a crusty unfriendly old sh!t head. The two usually don't go together real well. An effective leader can get everything they need to get done without intentionally p***ing everybody off. If some one needs a smack down you've got to be willing to give it but 99% of the time there are betters ways to deal with the situation.

Originally Posted by SAABaroowski

The profession has not only lost its pay, and glamor, it is losing good pilots, it is the culmination of our society as a whole, trying to be politically correct, too afraid to speak the truth etc...........

Originally Posted by Airhoss

There is a huge difference between being a good captain and acting like a crusty unfriendly old sh!t head. The two usually don't go together real well. An effective leader can get everything they need to get done without intentionally p***ing everybody off. If some one needs a smack down you've got to be willing to give it but 99% of the time there are betters ways to deal with the situation.

Originally Posted by ERJFO

I can't agree more. Being "rough around the edges" and drinking brown liquor doesn't make you a good captain.

I agree with the first post that we shouldn't be afraid of chief pilots, or management, or maintenance, or gate agents, or rampers, or anyone else when it comes to our absolute authority in terms of SAFELY operating the airplane.

The captain the first post described sounded more like the guy that tells his F/O to "[forget about it]" and blasts off in heavy snow without deicing.

Originally Posted by SAABaroowski

the difference between now and years ago is when Airline Pilots started their careers there was no ALL ATP, no Gulfstream Airlines etc..............it was much harder to get into the airlines than it was this past summer, and usually the ones who had experience hailed from the Military, and lets not kid ourselves THERE IS NO BETTER TRAINING THAN UNCLE SAM'S when it comes to flying airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!!

However to play devils advocate there was a time when they put ads in the paper and scraped Pilots off the street with PPL to fly 747's, albeit F/E but I dunno exactly how it went.

The point is the type of person in this profession as changed dramatically. I have flown with guys that are so afraid of EVERYTHING, the FAA, ATC, the Company, the Gate Agent, the F/A, they are basically afraid to make their own decisions and it cripples them as Pilots, as well as CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS. Back in the day it was a "Man's Man", you know the type, the grisly Brown Liqueur drinking type of guy that ran the show, didn't take any Sh*t from anyone, could fly an airplane with one wing etc......(much like a lot of Old school Delta,NWA, United, American, TWA etc.......)now its some quasi yuppie nerd who grew up playing Flight Sim, happy with low pay because his parents set him/her up nicely.

Some of you guys may even know him, but when I instructed I worked for Rich Greene, out of Caldwell, NJ (Century) he retired like #14 at American in 2002, he was an Airbus CA, he was very rough around the edges but he knew more about aviation and flying then anyone I ever met, he rubbed people the wrong way, and multiple times people stormed out of his flight school saying he was nuts) but in my mind he was the epitome of an airline pilot, he was kinda rude, insensitive but told you how it was and was in complete control at all times, and would never be told what to do by a Gate agent, but still professional......sorta

The profession has not only lost its pay, and glamor, it is losing good pilots, it is the culmination of our society as a whole, trying to be politically correct, too afraid to speak the truth etc...........

Rant over, I have no idea what I just said but hopefully you guys understand what I am trying to say

Originally Posted by Zapata

I disagree with this part. Among other aspects of the industry, there is some darn good "training" happening when one is flying in the trenches of part 135 single pilot, turboprop, no autopilot, unscheduled etc. flying. With respect to airmanship and stick and rudder skills, I'd put the most proficient pilots in this field against the most proficient military pilots any day.

I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm just saying don't rule out other forms of training.......especially the real world stuff.

Originally Posted by winglet

Good Post,

I hear you 5 by 5! It's a sign of the times. Ab-Initio training, TCAS, GPWS, moving map GPS, (almost idiot-proof) automated aircraft, multiple-choice exams with answers provided, zero FAA oversight. I'm frustrated as well being forced continuously into playing "unpaid flight instructor". Pilot standards have definitely dropped to an all time low.

Where are the pilots that I used to look up to? The ones that grew up knowing they wanted to fly since their earliest memories? You know, the ones I don't have to explain the differences between a Boeing and an Airbus to? The ones that built their time with experience in a multitude of different aircraft and flying environments? The ones that became airline pilots AFTER building their confidence and competence at night in inadequate little airplanes in questionable weather?

We are living in the post 9/11 airline era where you can go from a over priviledged burned out 25 year old (insert your former dead-end job here) to "airline pilot" in 18 months. Skipping the experience and knowledge that is required for the position. I really shouldn't have to babysit these guys. I'm tiring of teaching aerodynamics, meteorolgy, high altitude aerodynamics, aircraft performance, etc. to these neophytes with the over inflated sense of entitlement. I miss flying with the guys and gals who have previousely explored the full envelope of their aircraft and flying abilities and posess the instincts and thought processes required for the job before they strap on a Part 121 aircraft with passengers in the back.

I'll continue on though because that is what I do. I'll show up to work and once again spend my time aloft explaining complex airspace, correct WX Radar usage, takeoff/landing performance, etc, to another clueless 21 year old 250 hour "ace of the base". I'll once again waste my breath explaining what I thought was common aviation knowledge contained in such obscure publications as the AIM and CFR 14, Part 91, 121 etc. That's my career choice, I guess.

Oh, and for those of you I offended. Good! It means I described what you know is true. Put down the magazine, unplug the I-Pod, skip a drink, and crack a book occasionally. Go read an airplane book (start with an Aircraft Recognition Handbook), build an aviation library, hand fly more often, make a small effort to increase your aviation knowledge, observe the good pilots you fly with, ask yourself what makes them good. Take note of the bad habits of the crappy pilots you fly with and vow not to become like them. Oh and since I'm at it, go and get some quality cross-wind landing instruction and then read "Aerodynamics for Naval Aviators" or "Fly the Wing" or "Fate is the Hunter", etc.

You'll find that with a continued desire to gain knowledge and experience, and the attempt to be your best, you'll develop the real confidence along with the real competence you've been faking thus far. You're an AIRLINE PILOT, act like one.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. Now let's all get out there and reclaim the profession.

Winglet Out!

Originally Posted by flynavyj

i don't know if it's the same experience as the guy who's cranking and banking while looking in the rear view trying to get the Mig off his tail.

Originally Posted by johnnysnow

How does that apply to flying for an airline, since that's what this discussion is about? Can you cite the last time a US Fighter jet was being chased by a Mig? I can, 40 years ago during the Vietnam war, when we were all just kids. You military guys are a real trip. Constantly trying to remind everybody how much better you are than everyone else. Give it a break, please!

I've flown 121, 135, flight instructed, and I have been around a while. I had an ATP student once who was actively flying P-3's in the navy who couldn't shoot an ILS approach to Instrument PTS standards. On the other hand, I had an 18 year old (who just completed his commercial 3 weeks before) do his CFIA and CFII in 6 hours of dual. Took his check ride with the toughest FAA examiner in Dallas, guy said it was the best checkride he had ever given.

My point is where and how you got your training does not determine how good of a pilot you are. I've flown with many excellent military pilots, and some real bad ones. Same thing with the civilian trained guys.

Granted, a military pilot maybe knows how to dogfight, or calculate the math on a bomb trajectory, but these are not transferable skills. Your not flying a fighter jet anymore hotshot, it's a bus. Please try to remember that.

And while I'm at it, this stereo typical old, crusty, bourban and cigarette smelling Captain is not a role model. Back in the 80's, the airlines were trying to figure out why with all this great technology, they were still losing airframes on a regular basis. The answer was these old crusty loose cannons. Hence the intro of CRM first adopted by United with Quatum Pro. And by the way, where did all these relics come from anyway? That's right! the military!

Listen, don't get me wrong. I appreciate the military and their fine pilots. They have some of the best training around, if your doing arial refueling, dropping bombs, landing a 300 ton aircraft on a unprepared strip in a 1000 ft, planting an F-18 on a moving deck at night, dogfighting, etc. All I'm saying is that your attitude and those like you, is dismissive of any training or experiences that come from anywhere other than the military. It's getting real old. Rant over.