Colgan 3407 NTSB Hearings
05-12-2009 | 02:17 PM
#101
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I would venture to say his training prepared himself for this. The blatant disregard for situational awareness is the obvious cause of the accident. Let's look at the facts.
-Capt. Renslow was had just come off 3 consecutive stand-up overnights.
-He could not afford a crashpad and therefore slept in loud an noisy crewroom.
-First Officer Shaw had commuted in on red-eye FedEx flight from SEA via Memphis
-Shaw had been awake since her 0600 arrival in EWR
Here are two people, obviously tired flying a late night flight, after a 1 1/2 hour taxi. On the approach to Buffalo that night, they were talking. Breaching Sterile Cockpit? Yes! But you all do it and you know you do.
So now we have these two, forgetting to put the power up, talking to eachother about absolutely pointless topics, he calls for the gear and flaps and the airplane goes crazy. For all they know the airplane was flying normally. Stick shaker, AP disconnect and he pulled up and applied power. She took it upon herself to retract the flaps to ZERO. (Procedure prob calls for Power, MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, wait for POSITIVE RATE and GEAR....THEN FLAPS to 5? ETC ETC ETC) Now he has aggravated the stall to the point of no returns (At this point they had already lost too much ALT).
Those are all facts. It caught them by surprise.
She probably shouldn't have done that. Not standard.
This was an accident. It was most likely human nature to pull back and add power after being surprised with the airplane going out of control like that.
-Capt. Renslow was had just come off 3 consecutive stand-up overnights.
-He could not afford a crashpad and therefore slept in loud an noisy crewroom.
-First Officer Shaw had commuted in on red-eye FedEx flight from SEA via Memphis
-Shaw had been awake since her 0600 arrival in EWR
Here are two people, obviously tired flying a late night flight, after a 1 1/2 hour taxi. On the approach to Buffalo that night, they were talking. Breaching Sterile Cockpit? Yes! But you all do it and you know you do.
So now we have these two, forgetting to put the power up, talking to eachother about absolutely pointless topics, he calls for the gear and flaps and the airplane goes crazy. For all they know the airplane was flying normally. Stick shaker, AP disconnect and he pulled up and applied power. She took it upon herself to retract the flaps to ZERO. (Procedure prob calls for Power, MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, wait for POSITIVE RATE and GEAR....THEN FLAPS to 5? ETC ETC ETC) Now he has aggravated the stall to the point of no returns (At this point they had already lost too much ALT).
Those are all facts. It caught them by surprise.
She probably shouldn't have done that. Not standard.
This was an accident. It was most likely human nature to pull back and add power after being surprised with the airplane going out of control like that.
OMG
WOW
More shock!!!
I can't friggin believe officers are expected to work with a schedule such as that!!!
SHOCKING!!!
The people need to know about this stuff... It's obvious with that FO fatigue played a major role!
Solid-State
PS ok I'd also fly with DMEarc... The Dude and DMEarc... that's it at this point
05-12-2009 | 02:17 PM
#102
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Not according to Bombardier, Colgan, Transport Canada, or NASA (who all testified today).
A couple things I noticed in the hearing (biased, b/c I do recognize the pilots were likely @ fault, but I think Colgan is trying to avoid any responsibility in the matter):
Colgan pilots - what's the deal with your sick call procedures? Do you really not call in sick when your sick, but rather fatigued?
A couple things I noticed in the hearing (biased, b/c I do recognize the pilots were likely @ fault, but I think Colgan is trying to avoid any responsibility in the matter):
- the accident crew set the power to 75% during their attempted stall recovery. The procedure calls for 90% as outlined by Bombardier, and followed by Colgan
- Bombardier Q400 Chief Test Pilot said (I'm paraphrasing) 'altitude has nothing to do with stall recovery'. It became VERY clear that Colgan's CA Prior (who has 25 hours TT on the Q400, yet is responsible for Q400 sim training) did not agree with this philosphy. His initial comments reflected the Colgan procedure at the time ('maintain altitude", otherwise known as ZERO altitude loss), but then said they now expect recovery in 100'-200'. One of Colgan's sim instrutors reported that 75% of the pilots he sees pull BACK when they encounter a pusher - just like the accident crew. Perhaps the standard to "maintain altitude" has something to do with this?
- Colgan DO will forward all irregularity reports , including sterile cockpit violations, to the FAA, pull the pilot off line, and refer them to training/standards (No ALPA pro-standards, pilots could call a 1-800 #, or use ASAP to avoid punative treatment)
- Colgan issued a memo saying if you return to the gate due to pilot error (switch position), you will be subject to training and a letter will be put in your file. Member Sumwalter questioned the Colgan DO ‘does this mean this is punative?’ The DO said ‘no, that's not how he reads it'. Sumwalt responded 'it reads it exactly that way to me'
- DO says: if you get sick within 2 hours of your show, he thinks it is most appropriate to call fatigued, not sick
- overall impression is the DO and CA Prior were the most pilot unfriendly of the group by far (CA Prior did not compare favorable in Q400 knowledge when compared to the Chief Test Pilot for Bombardier, who testified with him
Colgan pilots - what's the deal with your sick call procedures? Do you really not call in sick when your sick, but rather fatigued?
I'm not a Q pilot, so I can't reference the stall recovery procedures. However, we are one of the majority of airlines that teaches stall recovery with minimal altitude loss. We do not train to the pusher and we do not train in unusual attitudes like the former head of training said. How do you train unusual attitudes in an aircraft that is part 25 certified and isnt certified for unusual attitudes???
Sick policy? here is the skinny. If you call in fatigued, you are removed from the line and in the chief pilots office. Period. If you call in sick even 12 hrs prior, the company can ask for a doctors letter. If you don't produce one, guess what? Missed trip. When do they ask for a doctors note? It's up to the discression of the crew scheduler and the chief pilot. Can you use sick time for personal time? no. Does sick time go away if you don't use it? bet your hind end it does.
If you do a gate return at colgan or air return or whatever, expect to be scrutinized hard. Some of this if from BS write up's or the normal stuff. However, if you are the CA, you are wrong until you prove yourself right. Example, My left main didn't come up one day. I did an air return, and the DO had already left me a message, and the MX boys were checking gear pins before I could even open the cabin door.
Old school colgan is showing it's face in this hearing. With ALPA help, and the hearing, hopefully most of the old school tactics and bs will go away. My .02
05-12-2009 | 02:22 PM
#103
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 173
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WOW!
After reading these posts and the "politically correct" sociology/psychology most of you seem to exhibit with all the various excuses regarding pilot "stick and ruder man" oops "stick and rudder person" skill I personally won't get in an aircraft with ANY OF YOU e. STUFF IT!
After reading these posts and the "politically correct" sociology/psychology most of you seem to exhibit with all the various excuses regarding pilot "stick and ruder man" oops "stick and rudder person" skill I personally won't get in an aircraft with ANY OF YOU e. STUFF IT!
05-12-2009 | 02:24 PM
#105
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Joined: Dec 2008
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05-12-2009 | 02:40 PM
#106
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Joined: May 2009
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I'm not a reporter just a concerned citizen! I'm trying to help you guys by commenting that the schedule both FOs had was totally out to lunch! We have laws I believe up here that govern the hours a semi truck driver can operate. What about the aviation industry? Is there not criteria regarding time between flight schedules to provide enough sleep for FOs?
Also I'd like to ask if hours such as these are systemic in the industry?
Solid-State
Also I'd like to ask if hours such as these are systemic in the industry?
Solid-State
05-12-2009 | 02:55 PM
#108
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Joined: Apr 2008
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I CARE! Reporters are the bottom feeding scum of the planet. I've seen the damage these leaches can do to things I really care about. They NEVER tell the truth and spin everything to get SHOCK value.
05-12-2009 | 02:55 PM
#109
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 433
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I agree though that reporters lurking on a public forum are not being professional and responsible. And if you (SolidState) really are just a "concerned Citizen", then stop being obnoxious.
Last edited by Dashdog; 05-12-2009 at 03:21 PM.
05-12-2009 | 02:56 PM
#110
Indian Takeout Driver
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,566
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From: FAR part 347 (91+121+135)
I would venture to say his training prepared himself for this. The blatant disregard for situational awareness is the obvious cause of the accident. Let's look at the facts.
-Capt. Renslow was had just come off 3 consecutive stand-up overnights.
-He could not afford a crashpad and therefore slept in loud an noisy crewroom.
-First Officer Shaw had commuted in on red-eye FedEx flight from SEA via Memphis
-Shaw had been awake since her 0600 arrival in EWR
Here are two people, obviously tired flying a late night flight, after a 1 1/2 hour taxi. On the approach to Buffalo that night, they were talking. Breaching Sterile Cockpit? Yes! But you all do it and you know you do.
So now we have these two, forgetting to put the power up, talking to eachother about absolutely pointless topics, he calls for the gear and flaps and the airplane goes crazy. For all they know the airplane was flying normally. Stick shaker, AP disconnect and he pulled up and applied power. She took it upon herself to retract the flaps to ZERO. (Procedure prob calls for Power, MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, wait for POSITIVE RATE and GEAR....THEN FLAPS to 5? ETC ETC ETC) Now he has aggravated the stall to the point of no returns (At this point they had already lost too much ALT).
Those are all facts. It caught them by surprise.
She probably shouldn't have done that. Not standard.
This was an accident. It was most likely human nature to pull back and add power after being surprised with the airplane going out of control like that.
-Capt. Renslow was had just come off 3 consecutive stand-up overnights.
-He could not afford a crashpad and therefore slept in loud an noisy crewroom.
-First Officer Shaw had commuted in on red-eye FedEx flight from SEA via Memphis
-Shaw had been awake since her 0600 arrival in EWR
Here are two people, obviously tired flying a late night flight, after a 1 1/2 hour taxi. On the approach to Buffalo that night, they were talking. Breaching Sterile Cockpit? Yes! But you all do it and you know you do.
So now we have these two, forgetting to put the power up, talking to eachother about absolutely pointless topics, he calls for the gear and flaps and the airplane goes crazy. For all they know the airplane was flying normally. Stick shaker, AP disconnect and he pulled up and applied power. She took it upon herself to retract the flaps to ZERO. (Procedure prob calls for Power, MAINTAIN ALTITUDE, wait for POSITIVE RATE and GEAR....THEN FLAPS to 5? ETC ETC ETC) Now he has aggravated the stall to the point of no returns (At this point they had already lost too much ALT).
Those are all facts. It caught them by surprise.
She probably shouldn't have done that. Not standard.
This was an accident. It was most likely human nature to pull back and add power after being surprised with the airplane going out of control like that.
B) This accident shows in many ways the brokenness of the "regional" airline business model... it's all cost based and as long as we're not willing to pay more for it, we'll continue to get marginal pilots flying us around..
The pay sucks, the training sucks, and the workrules and schedules suck.. who else would take a job like that in this day and age unless they too maybe also suck? I took crap wage jobs 15 years ago because then (unlike now) there were jobs to be had at the mainline, and there was a sort of light at the end of the tunnel (ASA to new hire American in 4 yrs).. back then The mainline was 25X the size of the "regional"... but due to weakening scope and lobbing by the ATA, the mainline is now about the same size as the regionals... which is to say, the days of using it as a stepping stone are long gone... so why are people still sinking $50K into training to then take $19K/yr jobs??? Why?
but when you hire people who listen to: Life in the skies- How to become a pilot and get a job flying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86nC9...eature=related
what do you expect?
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