I'm flying 135 rite now and will do so until I retire or switch careers if the regionals continue on the same path. If there were F/O jobs available you couldn't pay me to take one.

 

Actually Skyhigh, you couldn't be any more wrong and here's why:

What would be the incentive to get people in this industry if the pinnacle of their career is 35k a year after shelling out 100k for education/training?

The whole reason for crap wages throughout entry-level parts of our industry is the rat race to get a seniority number at what's perceived a career place. Your whole reason for tolerating crap wages is the perception of the big payoff down the road.

If your case held ANY water, corporate aviation, which is free of unions and seniority systems (fractionals not included), would top out at 35k for Global/Gulfstream/Challenger captains flying worldwide. Care to guess how much those guys make? Guess what else... if their department closes down, they don't go back to making poverty either, unless they choose to go to the airlines.

Like I said... you can choose to lowball in general aviation. In the airlines, you MUST lowball, thanks to unions and the seniority system.

 

Are you saying the airlines should dump their unions or just dump ALPA and go independent or another major union?

 

Thats the only realistic solution, NO unions, NO seniority number, NO pre-determined pay scale. Like every other non-Union industry and profession.

 

Sweet!! Stick it to em!!

 

Bingo!!!!!

 

Corporate aviation is a mixed bag. They often get better wages because they have to deal with stuff that airline pilots don't. Corporate pilots live like sky butlers. They do not have a schedule and fly somewhat rare planes. In addition corporate guys usually do not get retirements and sometimes have to pay for their own training. Corporate guys often have other job duties like managing the plane or even working on the factory floor. Their jobs are not secure at all and can vanish overnight at the whim of a spoiled executive. I left a corporate flying job because they did not pay as well nor did the job offer the same QOL as a regional.

If the airlines were able to hire and fire at will, did not have to fund retirements, health care or training they too would appear to pay better. The airlines fly common aircraft types on schedules. If the airlines we exposed to the free market and any commercial pilot could get the job of their dreams by merely accepting less than the next guy you would see wages plunge. The free market value of a major airline pilot is between 35 and 60K.

Skyhigh

 

Yeah! We're all underpaid, overworked, with no days off, with crappy layovers, sky butlers who make less than US regional pilots. Stay away from business aviation! Not to mention, we're too dumb for unions and seniority system too. Maybe when we get a little more advanced, we'll hopefully get unions to protect us against the horrible abuses we suffer.

Wow! If this perception is what it takes to keep the riffraff out of corporate aviation, by all means, I'll take it!

How would you know what the free market value of an airline pilot is? What are you basing your 35 - 60k figure on? Overseas carriers perhaps? I know that's not where you're looking because their regional FO's make more than US regional captains. You can't base it on any US carrier because of the seniority crap. For example, if a regional airline wanted someone with my qualifications and experience, they'd have to pay for it if I was negotiating my own salary, and sorry pal, if they offered me 20k a year, I'd laugh and tell them that's acceptable as an annual bonus maybe. But guess what... ALPA made sure that I don't have that option. If I want to work at a regional airline in the US, I have to take that 20k annual salary and like it. Sorry ALPA, you can keep that. I'll go be a sky butler instead.

They are two reasons people fly for food stamp wages:

1) There's that big payoff perception when you get picked up by the "big boys."

2) There's no other way around it in the airlines. Seniority system ensures it.

 

For a preview of what that situation would be like, read "Flying the Line" by George Hopkins. What would make it any better for pilots this time around?

 

No seniority number = free market = no union = company fires senior-higher paid pilots to save money.