And this is what you support?? Apparently, it is:

And you said that current F/O wages won't support a family. What happens when they are "universally cut in half"?

 

I SURE DIDN'T NEGOTIATE 30K/YEAR PAY

 

Frack my life.

 

Pilots are like Dorrito's management can't eat up just one.

 

Perhaps to retain experienced pilots or to help foster increased morale and company loyalty? Then again, maybe the free market does not care about such things.

No seniority = managers retaining their incompetent brown-nosing buddies and "s"-canning your trouble-making butt.

 

Pilots will step over the dead bodies of others to get the job. They will fist fight their grand mothers for a seat in ground school. If everything including the left seat were up for grabs then a lot of experienced pilots will come out of the wood work willing to do the job for less than the other guy.

Professional flying is not a job anymore but a life of martyrdom. The majority of pilots compensation comes from job satisfaction. In the airlines experience really does not count for much anymore. Pilots are hired based upon their friends and family network.

Take all that away and open it up to all takers who meet the stated minimums and you would see wages plummet. LCC's prove it. Why would an experienced captain take a job at a start up for less than they could be earning on year two at an established major?

Pilots are not paid by what they can do but for what they will do. The airlines commonly offer the best the opportunity for QOL over corporate. Corporate guys usually have to give up a lot more control over their lives. They are paid for what they will give up.

I flew right seat in a corporate/135 learjet and citation. My schedule was 24 hours a day on call for 17 days in a row. I had a 30 minute call out and averaged $1000/ month. My life was miserable. I could not go on a date. I had a hard time sitting through a movie. I worried about buying a gallon of milk since I could be called away at any time for weeks at a time. I could not go skiing even though the lifts were only 15 minutes away.

When I was called out it was almost guaranteed to be over every weekend. You could count on being gone for every holiday because those are the times when the VIP's wanted to visit their friends and family. Corporate guys are paid more because they have to put up with a lot more.

The regionals offered similar wages and an actual schedule. Eventually there was hope of reclaiming a shred of a normal life.

SKyhigh

 

I support fair wages and that every pilot should be able to reach their career objectives without going broke or loosing their family over it.

I don't write about positions that I "support" I write from an honest perspective of the realities of the career.

Unions artificially have held wages high. The era of union strength and control is now history. Free market forces are pressuring wages down to a competitive level. The best that a union can hope do at this point is to organize the retreat.

I wish things were different for myself and everyone else.

Skyhigh

 

Indeed you do. Unfortunately, there are no brand-new, solidly-established, low-cost, high-wage, union-protected, non-union, great-layover, home-every night, fully-automated, steam-gauge, golden-age, new-wave, no-reserve, all-Captain airlines hiring at the moment. But things may turn around.

 

Guys who finish their degree can either go to a good flight school and complete all their ratings, or do an MBA instead.

The median wage for MBA's entering the work place in 2008 was $108,000 per year.

It's a no brainer!


AL

 

You totally missed the point. "Higher paid, senior pilots" concept wouldn't exist. A captain would be paid what the market for a captain on that airplane would bear and what he could negotiate himself.

You are absolutely right, in the seniority world where you live and die by the date of hire. Why would I be willing to do the job for less than other guy? You still have not answered my questions I've asked you several times so far. Why do US airline pilots undercut each other? Do you think it has anything to do with the rat race for a date of hire at a career carrier or even your regional, as that date of hire is literally all that matters in the airline career? What would be the incentive to undercut others if your date of hire was no longer a factor in you upgrading or getting better pay, etc.?

You're right. It is a life of martyrdom in the US airlines. As I said above, it's a rat race. It's a rat race to get into a regional because you need to build time in order to upgrade. When you upgrade (totally based on DOH) is when you start getting that turbine PIC so you can apply at majors and start over on the bottom of the scale, all in hopes that you will land a job. Then, again, you'll grind through probationary year in hopes you get to that 2nd year FO pay when you can finally live OK... and then it's a gravy train for the rest of your career, right? Unless your airline shuts down due to incompetent management, and your union tells you... sorry pal, back to rookie pay you go. But hey... if you want to be paid and treated like a professional, check out foreign carriers: no probationary year, if you're an experienced captain, you'll get hired as a captain, and you'll be paid as a captain.

Because of the rat race. See, again... in the US, even LCC's are all seniority-based establishments. It's all about a race to beat the other guy out and get higher seniority. So the question is indeed... why? See, you're totally missing another part of the equation as well. If you fly for a dirtbag outfit, you'll leave if you can get a better deal. I don't know how long you've been in this industry, but I was in it before 9/11 and post-9/11, and saw some ugly pattern bargaining. UAL is the prime example. They were the top of the heap - best pay, best retirement, best work rules, etc. They also attracted the best... and everyone's goal was to work at UAL. 9/11 happens, and they go from the top to gutter. Why? Senior guys sold out the junior guys to save their retirement, and partly why guys have been voting YES to concessions was to save an airline because even 40% paycut is better than a 85% paycut and having to start over somewhere else. Worries about seniority status... so instead of being able to vote with one's feet, the management got real smart, and your choice became 30% paycut or 85% paycut and starting over again. Bear in mind, that VP of Flight Ops doesn't have to start over. He'll do the same job at another airline for the same amount of money - but YOU WON'T! You'll take a paycut to preserve your seniority, and he'll get a bonus. Again, how are you not getting screwed here?!

In some cases you're right. In some cases, you couldn't be more off base. That's the beauty of it. You have flight departments where someone has to die or retire in order to get into it, others have a revolving door. The beauty is the choice. If you work for a great department that say shuts down, or becomes a total drag, you can leave and port your pay with you to another employer. You can look at the range of compensation for your type as shown by variety of salary surveys (NBAA, Stanton, etc.) and use that to negotiate your pay. Some employers go strictly by those. Some may try lowballing you. Some won't hesitate to pay you more because they want you. It's all on you... if you're a good guy, hard worker, get along with others, network, you should be able to leave a dirtbag operator and get hired elsewhere. That's the beauty of it. Can't do that at US airlines.

Wow... this sounds like a really low rent outfit you were working for. By contrast, there are jobs out there that pay their pilots on par or higher than the most senior legacy airline captains, and they don't work nearly as hard. It boils down to what kind of an owner you're working for, and also how well you can negotiate your employment package. After all, you're a professional - you should be able to negotiate your own compensation package, right? If you work for a new money owner who doesn't respect anyone, you'll end up flying for someone like you described - low pay, miserable work conditions, etc. But guess what... when times are good, that owner will have a revolving door and eventually a difficult time attracting pilots. My first corporate job was exactly like that. On the other hand, a good friend of mine flies a super-midsize jet, makes 130k a year not counting his holiday bonus and flies maybe 300 hours a year. He's been with the same owner for 6 years now.

The beautiful thing about our side of the industry - we can leave and not worry about having to take 85% paycut as a result of us going to another company. Perhaps that's why corporate pilot wages have been generally higher than the airlines, at least in the recent years. Airline pilots can't do that, so you'll continue to have erosion in wages.